This analysis is terribly coarse, but I'll post it here because it may be useful to people trying to design RP systems. If anyone feels like redoing it with the proper amount of detail, it might be nice. I wrote this up very quickly, late at night, just trying to answer the question for myself quilitatively.
All loot tables are assumed to be 20/20/20/20/10/10% (except seemingly for Firemaw B and Ebonroc B, which I can't figure out).
Razorgore:
Mag .1 (Mantle/2)
Wlk .3 (Trink, Mantle/2)
Pst .2 (Gloves)
Hun .2 (Trink)
War .2 (Mace, Untamed)
Vael:
Mag .2 (Trink)
Drd .27 (Trink, Neck/3)
War .2 (Helm)
Pst .07 (Neck/3)
Pal .17 (RDP, Neck/3)
Rog .05 (DFB/2)
Hun .05 (DFB/2)
Broodlord:
War .25 (Gem, Xbow/2)
Rog .35 (Totem, Maladath, Xbow/2)
Mag .1 (Bracers/2)
Wlk .1 (Bracers/2)
Hun .2 (Shoulders)
Drakes A:
(You see this loot table about 1/3 of the time, whenever a drake doesn't drop gloves. But since you fight three drakes, I'll count it once).
War .3 (Pauldrons, DTC)
Pal .17 (Ring/2, Rejuv/3)
Drd .47 (Belt, Ring/2, Rejuv/3, SWF Staff)
Pst .07 (Rejuv/3)
Interesting, although I think a handful of your loot class "assignments" are questionable.
1. Staff of the Shadow Flame is mage/lock, but Shadow Wing Focus Staff goes to druids?
2. Rogues split Boots of the Shadow Flame with druids, but Taut Dragonhide Shoulders and Belt are druid-only?
3. Pallies and priests split the Pure Elementium Band; no druids?
4. Pallies and druids split the Ring of Blackrock; no priests, mages, or locks?
5. Rogues take Maladath; no warriors?
6. Pallies take Herald of Woe; no druids?
Aren't Taut Dragonhide Shoulders an upgrade to Bloodfang?
Don't Paladins get a lot more out of Herald of Woe than Druids? It's similar to the Drama Dredger debate, I guess. Also, due to the +sword skill, Maladath is one of - if not the best- offhands for a rogue in the game, unless it's going to a dps warrior I'd be inclined to give it to rogues first.
Shadow Wing Focus Staff is almost a sidegrade from SoD for mages. I'm not sure why a druid would want it either, though, unless you don't have any acess to world bosses.
You could make an arguement for the shoulders due to the stamina, but unless you have abnormally high crit or low AP, .8% crit should do more for a rogue than 15 AP (assuming I don't fail at math). Also, when there's a set item that's very similar to a non-set item, I'd be inclined to prioritize the non-set item to those who can't equip the set item.
I'd personally be inclined to give Maladath to rogues over warriors, as it's wasted as a tanking weapon, and giving dps warriors better gear seems to just make them die faster.
The Feral AP maces are better for druids, while the herald of woe is about as good as it gets for paladins who like caster stats on thier 2h weapons.
Like I said, I didn't put much thought into this. I just did it well enough to convince myself that I was right about Warriors getting the most. I mostly posted it here so anyone who had further interest could run with it if they wanted.
Just to note, though:
1. SWF Staff has always been a Druid weapon for us. It's a minor upgrade over SoD, and most people with Mageblade or better aren't really interested. We don't get ORB's often, so Druids don't have Rampant Growth, so SWF is nice.
2. Our Rogues are just obsessed with BF.
3. Nah, Druids should have 1/3 of it
4. It just seems to land on those two classes, given the other available rings.
5. First few went to Warriors, when epic 1H were scarce for us. Now, it's less of a problem, and this +skill stuff just came up anyway.
6. Yes
Generally not a good way to start an objective analysis.
Yeah, if he's going to do stuff like that (but let us have the benefit of his coarse analysis anyway) he totally should have had some sort of a disclaimer about the level of polish on his work, maybe in a paragraph at the top of his OP.
Thanks, Arawethion, its quite interesting stuff. I wonder if warriors were intentionally given a bigger slice of the pie due to a) greater numbers in a raid usually and b) more commonly acknowledged gear-based roles in a raid - dps gear and tank gear both being valid loot for a single warrior. Probably not, I guess.
I don't find it surprising - you just need to look at the number of 2 handed weapons in the game to understand that for some reason Blizzard lovess creating warrior items. Ragnaros has *3* double handed weapons in his loot table, all of which are better for warriors than any other classs. There's more 2 handed weapons in BWL than any other weapon type, and of the 2 legendaries being introduced in the next patch, one is going to be another warrior weapon.
Not moaning, just saying that it appears someone out there like's making *really* big pointy sticks... :)
--
Re. the above table, the problem is, it doesn't differentiate on quality of items. You've listed Angelista's Grasp as a mage / warlock item, but I can't ever seen any player, of any class, ever wanting to loot that item. The only thing a mage or warlock wants from Chromaggus is the dagger. You can't use the info for pricing / dkp systems unless you allocate some value, as otherwise you end pricing stuff based upon the incorrect info. Your info has Vael being a better mob for mages than for rogues - and whilst rogues are always happy to see a Dragonfang Blade, mages just groan when their trinket drops... :)
I've always thought of warriors as the truest raiding hybrid in the game. You can always just stick an extra person on healing and they'll almost always be useful (if not necessarily optimal), but there's a definate cap on how many tanks you'd want on a lot of encounters. In that case it makes perfect sense that they'd need more raiding gear than anybody else as they switch roles far more often. They also can't really take their main role into PVP, unlike healers.
That still doesn't explain why they need so many different weapon options compared to Hunters, rogues or indeed any other class though. Never understoof the 2 handed weapon thing - still, at least it keeps them happy getting shinier toys...
I've always thought of warriors as the truest raiding hybrid in the game. You can always just stick an extra person on healing and they'll almost always be useful (if not necessarily optimal), but there's a definate cap on how many tanks you'd want on a lot of encounters.
That's funny. I've always been firmly rebutted, that rebuttal sometimes accompanied by offended yelling and all sorts of related nastiness, whenever I tried to associate the word hybrid with Warriors. And having more healers than necessary is no better for your raid than having more tanks than you need - in both cases you have unused potential that could be getting you through the instance faster. Upping everybody's overhealing by 5% does nothing to move the raid along. But that's off-topic.
I'm not sure your analysis really says anything about Warriors having more loot. I notice you make a couple of assumptions:
- Warrior as tank and Warrior as dps are valid roles.
- Druid as healer and Druid as tank/melee dps are valid roles.
- Priest as healer is a valid role. Priest as dps is not.
- Shaman/Paladin as healer is a valid role. Shaman/Paladin as dps is not.
And, interestingly, when you put these restriction on you find that Warriors and Druids are at the top of the chart in terms of gear choices. Priests and Shamans/Paladins are not. I suspect your analysis says more about what are accepted hybrid roles in the eyes of most raiders than it does about itemization. In other words, hybrids have more gear choices.
Well, mages/warlocks don't have hybridity. They can't heal, no matter what.
If you say priest DPS is a valid raid role and give copriority on that gear, you're increasing the size of the priests' piece of the loot pie, but that's coming out of the mages' and warlocks' portions.
There's no way to really make "priest DPS gear" that's any good and not have it also be of interest to (and thus better used by) mages and warlocks who lack epics of a certain quality in those slots. Particularly on the Horde side, warriors have no competition. We don't have a pure plate-wearing DPS class for them to compete with. They also have robust itemization for both sides of their class. As a shaman, even if I wanted to raid to build an "enhancement" set, show me all the epic mail with str/agi or +AP on it. There isn't any, really. On the other hand, the itemization team very clearly intends for druids to be able to assemble a full set of gear for bearform, with elevated armor values and high sta/str, and for warriors to assemble a full set of gear for DPS.
Drakes A:
(You see this loot table about 1/3 of the time, whenever a drake doesn't drop gloves. But since you fight three drakes, I'll count it once).
War .3 (Pauldrons, DTC)
Shm.17 (Ring/2, Rejuv/3)
Drd .37 (Belt.2, Ring/2, Rejuv/3, SWF Staff)
Pst .07 (Rejuv/3)
Rog .01 (Belt/2)
Paw, doing those values took longer than I thought.
Anywho, in our guild the priests want DPS stuff as well as healing stuff. Obviously, they pass until the mages & locks have what they want - but they *will* loot it after then, as they PvP quit a bit as well and enjoy the game outside of raiding.
Shows quite a big gap in the *useable* gear dropping per class. I've based it on what actual items have been looted by the raid force, so as best a judge of what class wants what. This doesn't include the trash mob epic drops of course, but they are lower ilevel than other stuff in the zone.
Definitely quite a disparity between warriors and the rest of the raid force on the Horde side though - they really are superbly itemised, whereas classes like mages seem to be mostly slotted into their raid set and little else by comparison.
Mages don't get much in BWL, but I bet if you did this for AQ the caster loot would come out ahead a little bit. Part of the problem with figuring things like this is you are assuming that certain classes want items for what is not neccisarily their role on raids, which cuts the 'pool' points down a bit. Your main tank probably doesn't care about DTPs dropping, nor does anything but a heavy enhancement shaman care about Therazane's. Note that the top 3 classes are all multi-role in this calculation: tank and DPS warriors, healing and feral druids, and healing/shadow priests. If you parsed this out discounting any sort of item where it's outside their normal raid role (and by normal I mean what the majority of them do, not the one shadow priest you keep in your raid to stack up shadow vulnerablity or the druid offtank on the 18-mob pulls) I think it would probably come out a little more evenly for warlocks and mages in particular. Obviously there are a lot of items that are meant to be used by feral druids, so I'm not sure how to really treat that, but I don't think that counting Mishundare for priests is an accurate way to spread the loot around.
PS- I would include Shamans on Broodlord's shoulders, they are quite good until you can get Stormcaller's.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
Broodlords shoulders just get De'ed every single time they drop for us. And the point is, as Praetorian points out - there's no way to itemise for priests outside of raiding that doesn't include warlocks and mages, so by default they end up sharing the same loot pool, outside of set gear.
And yes, there is definitely a point that they *need* to itemise more for the more hybrid related classes. However, I do think there's a relative lack of alternate mage loot compared to their warlock equivalents. I think AQ40 goes a bit of the ways to fixing this, with cloth armour with + fire damage on it.
Mages don't get much in BWL, but I bet if you did this for AQ the caster loot would come out ahead a little bit. Part of the problem with figuring things like this is you are assuming that certain classes want items for what is not neccisarily their role on raids, which cuts the 'pool' points down a bit. Your main tank probably doesn't care about DTPs dropping, nor does anything but a heavy enhancement shaman care about Therazane's. Note that the top 3 classes are all multi-role in this calculation: tank and DPS warriors, healing and feral druids, and healing/shadow priests. If you parsed this out discounting any sort of item where it's outside their normal raid role (and by normal I mean what the majority of them do, not the one shadow priest you keep in your raid to stack up shadow vulnerablity or the druid offtank on the 18-mob pulls) I think it would probably come out a little more evenly for warlocks and mages in particular. Obviously there are a lot of items that are meant to be used by feral druids, so I'm not sure how to really treat that, but I don't think that counting Mishundare for priests is an accurate way to spread the loot around.
PS- I would include Shamans on Broodlord's shoulders, they are quite good until you can get Stormcaller's.
those shit shoulders that get DE'ed every time they drop? ... pass
Mages don't get much in BWL, but I bet if you did this for AQ the caster loot would come out ahead a little bit. .
Huh ? Before C'thun there is exactly 3 worthy items in AQ for mages - emp offhand, emp boots (arguably worse than enigma) and Visc sword. And Chtun has as much melee items as casters.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
Oh, and neck ofc. I've just never seen it drop and have choker, so it kinda slipped away :)
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
And the point is, as Praetorian points out - there's no way to itemise for priests outside of raiding that doesn't include warlocks and mages, so by default they end up sharing the same loot pool, outside of set gear.
No, he said there's no way to itemize them for damage without sharing with warlocks and mages. Items like the Pure Elementium Band and Rejuvenating Gem are things that Mages and Warlocks don't give a crap about that are important upgrades for Priests. There are not a lot of +healing cloth items that aren't prophecy, but neither are there many +healing leather or mail items that aren't Stormrage or Ten Storms. I do use the BBPs because I need the regen; if you don't have access to anything past BWL or are just plain unlucky they're still good shoulders for both Shamans and horde Hunters. I know a lot of priests that don't have a care for DPS gear, and wouldn't roll on any of the damage items that are listed even after the zone was on farm status. Without limiting the class roles, you have entirely too much overlap in itemization and you can't get an accurate picture of how the important loot is divided out.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
It'd be interesting if Blizzard ever decided to add cloth items with +healing and +dmg/healing. It wouldn't be totally unprecedented since I believe some of the Ten Storms pieces are itemized this way.
It'd be interesting if Blizzard ever decided to add cloth items with either +healing and +dmg/healing. It wouldn't be totally unprecedented since I believe some of the Ten Storms pieces are itemized this way.
Only on class specific loot. Itemization rule prohibits mixing more than 1 spell modifier on non-class specific loot.
P.S. And its still "cheating" itemization formula, so i kinda doubt that will happen.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
05/24/06, 2:58 AM
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