oldmandennis

I was wondering what the current state of end game guilds are with feral druids. I've read some of the long old posts like this this and this, so there is no reason to rehash it all.

I'm curious if you would allow with a OOC/LOTP druid to play as such on cutting edge content (mostly cat form, shifting to innervate, res, and cast a few heals before shifting back)? Obviously it depends on the exact details of the fight, but I'm hoping for a general sense of if there will be one in the rogue group most of the time as you push new content.

It looks like OOC/LOTP kittys can be about 1k AP and 6.5k mana without AQ40, just Feralheart and Unending life.

 

saramin

Gurg's optimal talent spec post was made before 1.11 when Innervate wasn't essential but certainly handy. Since then feral druids haven't gotten any stronger, but the opportunity cost of going feral has gone down. One of restoration's dirty little secrets is that past 21 it tends to pale as you progress into endgame pve. Gift of the Wild adds the equivalent of about +60 healing to my HT rank 4 until it's fixed to scale with gear, swiftmend is sexy but redundant past the second raiding druid and imp. regrowth just blows in general. What this amounts to is that unless you're going 24/0/21 for efficiency there really isn't any excuse for not sinking floating points into feral and not feeling guilty about bidding dkp on AQ feral gear.

We don't have any dedicated 1X/3X/5 druids in my guild so I won't comment on their dps when pushed to the limit, but it's nice to see feral being ushered out of the 'battered tree syndrome' crowd, if only due to encounter design. As always, mixnmatch gear tailored to an encounter before a fight and don't worry overmuch about your damage meter standings.

 

Zalera

Would I want a feral druid as a DPSer? No. We have a feral druid in our guild who is incredibly useful, though; he heals most of the time, he's a reliable offtank, and if we get some wonky raid setup we can have him dps. It's more about him being a good player than him being a feral druid, though. I'd love to always have one or two of his type around, very very versatile. To me, that's what a useful feral druid can do on a raid, not "omg lotp kitty dps ^.^".

 

Shik

I consider a Feral druid to be the MOST versatile member of the raid.

However in order to pull that off, it has to be handled by someone who is extremely good at reading the situation and choosing where to act. A hell of a lot of people who play this game simply aren't that good. If the class can perform almost any role with gear, its not possible for the raid leader to always be directing them, they have to be able to operate semi-independantly. (Boss fights with set strats not-withstanding)

Of my 5 highly active druids, 2 are Feral... and most of the time they heal. However as we gear them up, they are doing more and more. Especially in the later half of BWL once you start hitting enough mobs they can be very valuable if they can make good decisions about where they have the most impact. AQ/Naxx I expect to be the same. Blizzard realized 1-2 mob trash pulls are boring.

 

Chupa

Shik hit the nail on the head. On any major fight I am a healer first unless things are just totally smooth or have completely hit the fan.

I'd say right now things are perfect. It's a good tool to have available, but you generally are not going to want a druid dpsing or tanking in place of a rogue or warrior, which is the way it should be.

 

◊ Kaubel

With the right gear, all druids are feral. Some are just a little better than others by virtue of their talent choices and/or skill level.

 

dojke

I know it's probably bad to bring attention to another of the 500 feral druid threads as I'm as sick of them as anyone else, but looking at dmg meters on emps today where we had to use 3 cats who happen to be 31+ restore (don't ask)...

The top druid today (w/ 20 feral and about 9 feral items equipped) did exactly 50% of the dps of an app rogue who dps's with a fucking teebu's blazing longsword. Last time we used cats they did like 40% of an avg rogue.

Needless to say, if we ever get such a fucked up raid composition again, we're going to use bears on bugs and warriors on dps. I honestly don't see how you can dps without total casterstat gimpage, and thus losing all versatility. At least with bear you can tank it in stormrage or whatever without large penalties.

 

• Bad Luck

We prefer a Druid off-tank on Fankriss now a days since Warriors have a much easier time rallying up all the adds. I am pro Fankriss off-tank. :) It is extremely fun to do and I love it. Keeping aggro off Moz is a bitch though.

But yeah, none of us are LotP specced, at the moment anyways. Mostly 30/21 or 31/20 variations. We all loves us some Feral gear and the opportunites it affords us.

 

nickhexum01

Meh, I think its pretty much time to give this dead horse a break. Most reasonable raids now don't mind having a feral druid or two along for the ride now. There are gonna be your hardcore ball buster guilds but just avoid those and you're fine. People accept that it can be nice to boost DPS a little and with all druids having innervate next patch its becoming even less of an issue. Specc what your comfortable with and leave it at that.

\"Seriously just delete Druids, Shamans, and Paladins and make a new class called \"Support\". Give them Auras, Blessing, Innervate, MotW, Battle Rez, and a Restoration Tree.\"

 

diospadre

Unfortunately druids, more than any other class, simply cannot shut up about themselves.

 

Slug

The current state of feral druids is that Bad maintains the best ass with Chupid running a close second. In spite of being far less cuddly on the whole, I think Chupid probably manages to score the overall honors due to actually healing me on occasion.

 

• Zyla

Being a good feral druid takes serveral realizations and acceptances:

1. You will never out dps the dps classes, so do not play your druid as pure dps.
Stop trying to epeen the meters. Accept being ~20th on the damage meters and being in the top 10 in healing as being identical to being #1 on the damage meters in terms of your value to the raid.


While, yes, you can do respectable dps, I've been in top 5 in meters when allowed to go crazy, but honestly, I came to the realization eventually that what I was doing was rather pointless. I think looking back on it, I did it to prove a point, and not much else. I have a silly amount of ap (~1700 raidbuffed) with about 31% crit if I go full dps gear. The problem is, kitty survivabilty is even worse then rogues. At least they can vanish and evasion in emergencies. A cat pulls aggro or gets low on hp, they shift bear and soak up valuable mana keeping them up. This is a liabilty. Cower doesnt cut it, and a dpser thats not going all out is not doing their job. Cat form is terrible for staying alive. PvP it gets even worse. DPS classes love LoTP. However, you cant be your primary role while using it. When I've specced LoTP, Im thrown in with our top 4 dps'ers and their output raises tremendously. However, I fail to be as much of an asset ot the raid as I could be. LoTP spec leaves me with no NS, and absolutely no mana if i wear gear to take full advantage of the aura. If we have any trouble with something, I am not specced or equipped in this mode to do much to save anyone. Druids are in the raid to heal first. They just are. We have the biggest heals and best HoT's and its stupid not to use them.


2. You are an awesome tank on anything that moves around a lot.

but you will still take more damage and are *marginally* more risky of a tank then a warrior. I was a very strong advocate of druid tanks and was one of the "lolferals" that boasted proudly of my tanking prowess, until one day I did some testing with a warrior and the power of shield block to get rid of crushing blows. No math in the world can make druids better if a warrior can escape most crushing blows via shield block. It's clearly intended as it has not been changed in several patches now. Thanks to AQ I now run the physical damage limit of 75% reduction, and it's awesome to tank with, but I can't pot or shield wall, and there's so many times where I wish I had those kind of outs to give myself. I can time most bosses attacks to shift ns ht, or shift pot shift before the next swing, but if i have to do these kind of things, the raid is probably in trouble.

I can, however, solo tank vem. And druid aggro is > warrior aggro when I use my ap gear. Pretty soon I think I can turn broodlord into a single tank fight. The higher crit, the sillier it gets. We have a very strong and important role on some bosses, and with some ingenuity, you can use the druids strengths to great advantages. Your healers do have to be better then they would have to be on a warrior tho. Pro healers can enable insane things from the raid by keeping a feral tank up.

Most importantly,

3. A well played feral druid is like water. Constantly shifting to fit its container.

The best way to think of a feral druid is like being water. You are what the situation demands. Thankfully, blizzard has designed some gear (pvp set, genesis set) that is absolutely perfect for this role. Full Genesis fascinates me more then the tier 3 set. With it, you truly can be anything. With the right accessorizing you can be a fully functional top 10 healer, an offtank or emergency tank that wont die in two hits, and throw in ~250 dps or so. All at the same time, if you truly put forth the effort. Theres been times where a single taunt I've thrown has saved a wipe, or where pushing hard in cat on the last few percent after going oom has dropped a boss.

You need to know the fights inside and out, you need to know when the raid needs more healing and when it needs more dps. You need to watch to see if a warrior loses a mob and its beelining for healers. You have to watch so much as a good feral druid that most probably couldnt do it. The raid's health, the mob's health, damage output, location, and current aggro are all things you need to track to fulfill your role to the fullest. Experience and knowledge of the encounter will tell you what form is appropriate. Depending on your raid makeup this will vary. My guild is very healer light, so most of the time I am main healing, but having the awareness that if something aboustely has to die and health be damned you can be a fat roadblock or a furry chainsaw. One of the keys is to blend your gear ahead of time knowing what the fight might bring. This changes your healing style, your reliance on certain methods of damage, it changes everything you can think of.

My advice to would be ferals: learn to heal first. then learn to tank with your abilities. then learn how to appropriately add some dps in cat. Don't be a lolferal and be a wanna be rogue. leave that for the bgs where you can be safe because you can 2 shot cloth. That rogue with deaths sting or that warrior with the ashkandi is doing more damage then you can even dream of, keeping him or her up with heals creates more dps then you charging in blindly and swinging away.

Just because you can do respectable dps doesnt mean its the most appropriate thing to do in that situation. Accept your limitations and USE ALL YOUR FORMS AND YES CASTER IS A FORM.

The bottom line is that there is a lot of room for idiocy in feral land, this is why people get turned off by ferals. Feral doesnt mean just kitty. Feral means Bear. Feral means 9k mana pools in healer gear. And for god sakes, get NS. Lotp is garnish. The life you save with that ns every 3 mins may be the one that prevents the wipe.

We don't use words like that...St. Louise is listening!

 

berg

Druid and shaman are in the same boat. They can perform admirably in many roles but they need a LOT of good gear to do so. There does not exist a set of gear that provides everything a druid needs and the way the item values work this problem will just get worse over time. Gear is getting increasingly specialized. Look at Stormcaller vs Earthshatterer (balanced vs specialized) The difference is staggering.

I think feral druids can be useful but unless they get a way to change gear during a shapeshift while in combat or some such I do not see how they can really keep up with the times in raids.

 

◊ Praetorian

Zyla, excellent post.

 

Jipakazoid

Zyla, great summary, thanks, already posted it on our druid specific forums (hope you don't mind) :)

Those whole additional roles discussions (feral druids, shadow priests) remind me a bit of my own past experience and dilemmas.

When i started raiding as a priest, i had great beliefs in the "dark side".
I was speced shadow, i collected shadow gear, and after a few month i even started running shadow in our raids.

I argued my case restlessly, i backed it up with damage meter results, explanations and math calculations.
I convinced mostly everyone.

Until after a few weeks it hit me - what i am doing is useless.
Be it my top DM results when clearing trash, farm boss, or tanking Onyxia.

Useless because it means almost nothing for conquering the content we struggle with.
When i see MT dying, and i know it means a whipe, i won't be quick enough to quit shadow form and throw a heal.
When i see priests start dying, and i quit shadow form to heal, i am mana-stressed.
Even if i don't run in shadow form, if i heal and dps, but remain shadow speced, every person that dies i question myself -
would me be speced holy save him? Would the mana regeneration, the improved heals, would it matter?

So i realised that i've been pushing the wrong limits, respeced holy, and now go to sleep after a night of wipes peacefully knowing i was trying my best.

A druid on the other hand is given more versatility in raids, and being able to adapt to the situation and play to your strength is what makes you (in my humble opinion) a true heir of Fandral Staghelm.

 

subscience

We had a Feral Druid die not once, but twice to Bloodlord Mandokir's Whirlwinds.

As a raid leader, I love the versatility of Feral Druids but it's really not the spec but the player instead. A shitty Druid is a shitty Druid, regardless of spec.

 

Blackpatch

Feral druids cannot shut up about themselves.
Balance druids are too busy sobbing to say anything.
Restoration druids can't think of anything to say about themselves.

PS: great post Zyla.

CONSERVE YOUR RAGE AND LUST

 

oldmandennis

Thanks for some informative posts.

As far as feral druids not shutting up

<-- Not a druid

I'm just starting to get a little tired of the totem and healing lifestyle, and since the review is going to do little to break that up I'm trying to think of an alternate playstyle that might appeal to me. Talents and itemization (Feralheart, Unending life, Genesis) point to a kitty with mana as possibly being viable (and it sounds like fun to me), but I guess the practical matter is that it seems like any guild that wants to progress will not allow that playstyle on any serious bosses.

As far as the "spec what you want, good guilds will allow it" or the "player not the spec" answers - if I retired my shaman and focused on my druid, I wouldn't get /gkicked. I would get left in Org some of the time. I don't think I would be allowed to play the style I'm imagining, and it doesn't sound like anybody thinks it would be a good idea on a difficult fight.

Oh well, maybe I'll just learn to surf this summer.

 

thejdawg

I agree with the whole post, but with this especially. NS is simply too good.

 

• Zyla

thanks for the kind words...trying to make up for past indiscretions :X.

Other thoughts:

Every druid should have feral charge, unless you're going full insaneo heal spec (24/0/27). There's so many uses for it that I dont think I can even begin to properly explain it. For getting to places, for getting away from places, nothing beats a good FC to get you there with a quickness. With any fight with multiple targets, it lets you get away from aggro or get to a better position to heal from. Plus the rooting effect of it can buy enough time for someone get get away if they're truly gonna be munched.

Druids can bash, in any spec, once a minute. The devs seem to be implementing the stun mechanic as being allowable in many more fights these days. You have these skills, you should use em.

Flame me if you want, but I'm kinda sad about the lack of feral upgrades in Naxx. Wheres the damn offhand :(. Using Stitches femur should only be for comedy factor, not the best tanking offhand in the game (i destroyed my totem of affliction :*( ) The ghoul skin whatever is decent, but its somewhat eh. 2 crit is an impressive upgrade, but it offers nothing else but that. Where's feral AP stats on things other then weapons? Wish there were more stats like that, like "increases dodge in feral by 5%" or something.

I still want a mini vanish to be able to change gear once a fight. Make it something like "Dream State" : You enter into the emerald dream for 5 seconds, placing you out of combat, but unable to act. You are still able to be damaged while in this state" Being able to swap gear like this would make even hardcore restos take feral gear. Make it a 10 min cooldown or something. It would make life a lot easier, and ferals a lot more desirable as they can wear full healing gear until the fight stablizes and then they can shift gear and form and effectively dps hard as the mobs have been tanked for a while, with a virtual lock on aggro.

I dont think this is necessary, but it would be something very nice to have. Hell make it a 31 Balance talent or something. Put it anywhere in any tree that would make it balanced.

Also, my inital post seemed to be somewhat anti dps feral, so i'd like to kinda amend it to say that as long as the mobs die, and the raid suceeds, anything is fine. Results speak for themselves. Thankfully there's enough room in this game for skill to outpace everything else, as someone said above.

All this being said, as a newly addicted to pvp druid, swiftmend makes life VERY difficult for me next patch when considering spec.

We don't use words like that...St. Louise is listening!

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Feral AP is weapon only to specifically make up for the fact that we can't equip weapons with higher dps.

Blue one handed maces are roughly 40dps. Epic feral maces will have exactly as much feral ap as needed to make up for the dps difference, so if you have an epic mace with an item level that would make it a 60 dps mace, you'll get 20 dps worth of feral attack power (280).

So if they made a feral one hand mace drop off kelthuzad, it'd have 490ish feral attack power to match up with the other 75 dps one handers like hungering cold

Check out my friend's bitchin' Lord of the Rings Art

 

◊ Kaubel

Don't let it.

I was goofing around on PTR, seeing just how good or bad swiftmend is, when an alliance mage tried to gank me. Now, understand that I was in +785 healing gear and playing with a 0/18/33 spec (imp mark AND furor). Long story short, his mana couldn't keep up with my constant HoTs and use of swiftmend. So when he ran out, and I was low, I popped innervate and proceeded to kick his ass.

Swiftmend is my new favorite talent.

 

Soul

It's not like you wouldn't have kicked his ass with that spec in 1.10...

 

Zalera

As a 8/11/32 now, definitely going Swiftmend for PvP, it only makes the oldschool spec that much stronger :p I think feral druids with innervate will be incredibly hard for people to beat in duels though, considering they don't have as much mana limitations now.

 

saramin

More and more your role going into a fight, pvp or pve, is determined by your gear and not your spec. The best feral druid I know will have 31 in rest come 1.11. People need to stop judging feral druids by their skill at being feral and start judging feral druids by their skill at being druids.

In other words, let the argument die.