Darkbond

Now that the PTR is online and people have gotten a chance to somewhat test out the new mage specs, what are your thoughts/concerns in regards to Mage DPS as far as after 1.11. How will it compare to warlock DPS? I know within my guild if the warlocks just put up corruption alone we have a chance of beating most of the mages in DPS in any of the end game dungeons (my main is a warlock). However when we look at fights where aggro is of no concern (Ragnaros) Mages can usually top those meters rather easily (it does help that they have frost spells). Normally our raid DPS looks more like Rogue > Hunter > Warlock > Mage. Just wanted to know what was everyone's thoughts on the matter. I mean looking at it that -30% to threat is huge from my point of view. I know the 8 piece set bonus from Nemesis to me in PvE is just too awesome to pass up. I have other gear that would give me a +63 more dmg boost but I rather not wear it just so I can wear my full Nemesis set (in non aggro related fights I do put on full damage gear) and heck thats only 20%.

 

Maledict

Are you Alliance or Horde? Hunters play completely differently, fom my experiance, because of JoW - in our guild no matter how hard they try they can't top mages or rogues due to the mana consumption they go through. Same with warlocks, on the alliance side their innate extreme mana inefficiency is less important due to BoW & JoW.

A frost mage who stays with roughly the same spec is gaining +6% to hit and +10% to crit from these talent changes, as well as a few non-dps related buffs. Including the -30% threat value, and mages should easily be outdamaging warlocks - the mana efficiency on frostbolt is just stupid now, and frost mages can keep going for a *long* time now.

 

Emila

IF you can log onto test server, and IF you can escape the billion premade rogues and shatter/pyro mages, I think that you will find that fire has become even more effective as a raid spec.

On a PvP note, the shatter mages that are rolling around on test are worse than AP mages in my mind. If they can't get a sheep down they are really weak. But once they get the sheep down expect to die in 7 seconds. The funny part is the build is only good 1 on 1 as in real pvp you should never have time to cast pyro.

As ordering on the dps meters ours usually looks like

R14 fury warrior
Rogue
Rogue
fury warrior
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue
Mages / Warlocks

 

Kobal

Would you please elaborate a little more? In particular how much of your statement is true in the not so fire friendly instances MC and BWL?

 

• Thrillho

Sadly, "Makes Fire Immune mobs no longer Fire Immune" is not a new talent choice.

Going forward, it does; but it's hard to say if Fire has moved up on Frost (relatively), or if they've both been boosted by the same amount, or what. It's definitely better than it was in absolute terms, but that's not the most important thing.

 

Darkbond

I play on horde. And take an account of our DM from last night in BWL

Rogue
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue
Warlock
Hunter
Warlock
Warlock
Mage
Hunter
Mage
Mage
Mage
Mage
Note: We have 2 Fury warriors in our guild and another Two hand sword specced warrior and they are normally either right below the rogues or right under the two top rogues (doesnt matter what their gear is, they arent touching the one and two spot) But because we were short lately on warriors, exams and such, most of our warriors end up tanking half the time)

Also take into account all three warlocks in that list have at least +601 dmg gear on. As for warlocks being mana inefficient, I personally sacrifice the Felhunter because of this. I can virtually cast for just as long as a mage (never allow my mana to go under 40% until the mob is at 15% health, make sure when Lifetapping fresh dots are up on the target). I dont doubt that mages can outdamage a warlock if they use all their talents (I have a mage alt). But does the 30% really allow them to use all their talents?

 

• Wodin

For what it's worth, mages and warlocks were thumping rogues in the first half of the Spider wing of Naxx(partly due to the nature of the fights, but partly due to being pro). I believe most of our mages were either 31/20 frost/arc or some slight variant of that(everything had winter's chill). Regardless, it was pretty impressive either way. Definitely a nice boost in raid DPS.

 

Emila

Was refering mostly to the buff of combustion and the current bug with ignite ticks, boosting fire damage.

Personally if I was a mage I would prolly still spec heavily into frost for the survability the tree offers. But that might because all the mages I play with spend more time in IceBlock than out of it.

 

Darkbond

Gawd, On the test server EVERY mage I encountered was an iceblock mage. I find this so suprising because NONE of the mages in my guild are Ice Block, and from what they tell me Combustion isnt all that (basically not worth 31 pts)

 

arch

This is sooo dependant on what faction we are talking about. The op is implying that mages have to watch their aggro even more than warlocks, which is not my experience. In my guild warlocks are usually not top5, it's usually 2 rogues 2 fire mages and a hunter (AQ),and that's because they hold back even more than mages. Hell they are walking around with full nemesis, with alot less +dmg than their full dmg gear, while mages can just equip 3 nw or not even that if you play your cards properly.

Sure, I'll admit that warlocks have higher dps potential because they can keep 2-3 dots on their target and shoot bolts. But it is difficult for them to do so cause their dots gets pushed off alot ,and if not they might get aggro because as soon as the dots are on the target I reckon it's a fine line between doing as much dps as possible without getting aggro and getting aggro. Spamming dots and bolts on alot of targets will most likely make them go oom fast as well, leaving them to life tap for a few seconds.

Now that we are getting even more mana efficiency, I really think us fire mages will be in the top all the time.

EDIT: and to the poster above me, Combustion IS worth using for a pure pve build. It beats the living shit out of PoM and AP for pve total damage, and it will be godly for encounters that requires burst damage (C'thun, Huhuran, Ouro etc).
Look at these two builds.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?kf0E00cZVgMzfcut
http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?Rf0E00cZVxMzfcut0b

These are my two choices. I will lose PoM and Imp cs, but neither of them are really that useful in PvE.

 

Darkbond

I dont really see how the differences between a mage and a warlock depend so heavily on which faction. Both classes will get the same Blessings as the other. Fire mages of course are very damage heavy and from our AQ damage meters the mages in our guild that have some Fire talents you do see a considerable boost in damage for them. And far as dots are concerned, most of the time I can see at least 4-5 DoTs from warlocks up on a target wiht our Debuffs on there as well (which since 1.10 cant be removed by any other class).

As far as combustion, testing it out for myself (be forewarned, I have a mage alt but I would never claim knowing jack shit about mages. I just use him to toy with now) I didnt really find the two last Fire Tree talents (Critical mass and Combustion) worth losing PoM, AP and Arcane Instability. With that said and with looking towards Naxxramas and seeing that its mainly a frost/nature instance, a Fire mage can do some SERIOUS damage in there I suppose.

 

Deathwing

Mages are going to have a crazy agro ceiling next patch. I'm going to assume that the agro talent stack with BoS because all other agro talents with the exception of shadow affinity(don't know why) do. ((1 - .3 - .3)/1.3)^-1 = 3.25. A mage must generate over 3.25x the threat of the tank to pull agro. And that's not counting things like full set arcanist or 3 set NW(full set arcanist stacks with BoS, btw).

Just to put it into perspective, a dps warrior or rogue can only do ((1 - .3 - .2)/1.1)^-1) = 2.2.

How that affects each mage's dps, depends on the fight and the calibre of your tank.

 

• Thrillho

Rogues can wipe their aggro :)


Additionally, update from the WoW forums: apparently, the Mage review ranks up there with the Priest and Paladin reviews as one of the worst ever. You heard it here first!.... well, second.

 

◊ Kalman

I think they could have given mages a 3s cast, 10k damage nuke... and someone would still find a way to complain about it on the mage forum.

(Note: Rogue forums? Aren't any better.)

 

• Wodin

Well, we can at least do math, we just use it for evil.

 

arch

The difference is that as alliance the warlocks can play around more freely with dots and spamming bolts, whereas a horde warlock has some serious aggro issues to look out for.

Fire power and Critical mass beats arcane instability and Combustion beats AP and PoM.

The mage review is just fine, we were told it wouldn't be a major review, only some slight talent alterations and we got alot more than we could ever expect. I'm getting sick of all the crying at the mage boards, that poor soul Tseric is going to jump off a bridge anytime now.

 

Maledict

The difference between factions is simple - BoW & JoW allow for a lot more mana flexibility for the classes. Horde mages usually dont get shaman, so they dont even get Mana Spring.
If you have BoW & JoW, you can afford to be a much more mana innefficient spec, because you are getting a *lot* more mana back than your equivalent.

On the Horde side, I just worry that without Ice's insane mana efficiency and clear casting, I'd be running dry in a lot of fights.

 

Darkbond

I agree with you there. I dont think mage review was bad at all. As a warlock I always had -20% threat from the get go when raiding (in terms of bosses, mobs Im not hardly concerned cause I rarely if ever pull aggro on them). But in terms of bosses having the Master Demonology talent made it easy enough for me to out DPS a mage. Now with me getting Full Nemesis couple months back now my spec is 9/21/21 and now I can effectively do even more damage, have the mana efficiency (not as well as alliance but still 2% of my mana pool every 4 sec, thats like 170 mana) and have the -20% threat. I can only imagine the joy of playing Alliance with Salvation and Wisdom and Kings.

 

sp

I too am interested about this, haven't got the luxury of testing Naxxramas yet.
From the looks of it, there's really a lot to look forward to for us raiding mages. -30% threat. Sounds awesome already.
I'm still unsure about my future build, so many valid options. Clearcasting would be a shame to loose as a result of elemental spec, but going deeper into arcane just isn't quite tempting, apart from Arcane Meditation.

Will have to wait and see how it plays out, I guess. As a horde mage I'm a bit afraid of how the mana efficiency will turn out to be with each build.
If anyone that has been to Naxx could shed some light on this it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Groglox

My only problem with mages getting more aggro reduction is the risk of it encroaching on the best class "ability" of hunters in aggroless damage, and decreases the viability in using that aspect of class difference in encounter design.

I am sure this can be avoided with creative design though.

 

• Thrillho

-30% threat has dick all on a full aggro wipe every 30 seconds.

 

Gonkish

^^^ But if I feign that means I'm breaking the giant number spam over the guy's head and stuff and that is bad.

Also: Mages (or at least OUR mages, who are renowned for the ownage) rape the everloving hell out of hunters in outright damage output. You can tell that on fights like Rag where you really can't pull aggro at range. (For example tonight's Rag DMs were literally: Mage/Mage/Mage/Mage/Rogue (CR hax)/Hunter/Hunter, etc.) Hunters have feign because we're: a.) a bunch of cheap bastards who enjoy not paying repair costs b.) see 'a' c.) putting out some big numbers occasionally and would be extra dead if we had absolutely no way of dealing with that (i.e., we'd be warlocks :(). Plus it gives the class much needed utility (for the dreaded pulling duty, early DPS, fun tranq duty (which is extra threat or somesuch), etc.), which mages have, though it's not always applicable in certain encounters (poly, buffs, decursing (this is a lie), etc.).

That said, Thrill's right. 30% aggro reduction is nothing compared to a complete aggro wipe every 30 seconds (although feign resists are evil). So I don't really think it's a case of mages 'encroaching' on hunter territory at all. A mage using AM with all that fancy threat reducing stuff, and BoS/Tranquil can still yank something off a tank if the mob happens to have a manner of de-aggro (i.e., broodlord, or vem). If that happened to me, I can just hit one key, and get back up. The mage would have to figure out if it's plausible to blink towards the tank(s) and potentially live or just eat a death. That's the difference, and that won't change.

Mages getting to see more big numbers with LESS chance of making some big nasty thing want to eat them whole is a good thing. That makes things die faster and that makes everything go faster. The challenge for them is to do things intelligently so as not to allow themselves and, indeed, the raid at large to get slaughtered by a very angry pile of death and destruction.

Me I feign and laugh at people for having to pay repair costs. And then they pile on my "dead" self next time we wipe on something, as payback. Bastards. :highfive:

Why Hunters suffer...
Benefactor's Bar learns you some goodness quicklike...

 

Mandilo

Anyone who wants burst potential pve damage in the fire school should have imp fireball imo, it's substantially more dps than scorch or frostbolt when spamming it(with deep fire tree talents and scorch vunerability at full debuff) and I think it will still be atleast 10% more dps even with winter's chill at full. As a poster already said, yes combustion does have the potential to highten that. But even as alliance with all the new talents, fireball is pretty mana inefficient and won't be sustainable without mass consumables for longer durations, so scorch is nice to fall back on being relatively the same dps as frostbolt with around 600 plus damage. I still want to be able to test the new specs in 1.11 on some of the longer fights to see how well each spell holds up in the mana department, but being Alliance, I think I will take my luxurious mana efficient paladin buffs and spec elemental to keep iceblock and give up the now, imo, weaker arcane tree.

Edit: More on topic: If you're mages are never competing with rogues for top dps spots in any fights, they aren't good mages. As is now I can compete with our best rogues and most of the time outdo them when aggro is of no concern and it's just straight up dps output. Fights where the boss as de-aggro's, no way, rogues/hunters will still do a significant amount more even with new aggro reduction talents. Although I'd still like to see more definitive answers on how the threat reduction enchants/talents/buffs are going to be stacking in 1.11 as I have heard they are being changed and that's sort of at the heart of this discussion.

http://ctprofiles.net/1391975

 

Mosh

As a Horde Warlock, I would consider a talent revamp that gave me -30% threat but changed nothing else an absolutely massive buff. This talent change seems completely out of proportion with the Priest changes, I know I'm gonna have a hard time beating our Mages (with inferior gear) now.

 

Maledict

Gonkish, the reason EJ hunters don't comepte with mages on aggro-less fights is due to BoW & especially JoW. Using equivalent gear, (i.e. full tier level), an alliance hunter can sustain maximum damage output for over 3 minutes. In the same gear, a Horde hunter will only last for 1 minute 20 seconds or so before going out of mana.
The difference BoW & the accursed JoW cannot be underestimated, they allow for a lot more build flexibility with regards to mana efficiency, and they allow classes where mana efficiency is supposed to limit their damage (i.e. Fire mages & Warlocks) a huge boost.

I mean, the warlocks on our raids are equipped up the hilt in + damage gear, and specced right - but after a short while on any fight they start to fall behind on damage, as time gets consumed by life-tapping etc. Same with the hunters - rogues & mages are the best DPS classes in our guild because they can keep going so long. Warriors would be as well, but for aggro... :)