Mage Spreadsheet, updated - Page 2

Liandra · 06/07/06, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

btw, what's the +damage coefficient for Pyro?

Used to be 1 (i.e., gets 100% of your +fire damage gear). IIRC, Blizzard changed this to 6 / 3.5, but I'm not 100% sure.

Maledict · 06/07/06, 1:06 PM

Youy get 100% of your damage bonus on the initial blast, and then a further 70% of your damage bonus added to the DoT as well - it get's a BIG boost from + to damage gear.

Brilliance · 06/07/06, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by newladin

Originally Posted by Brilliance

Twins -> We have light and wisdom up on each. It takes 3-4 seconds, and it helps out alot.

you can judge light on the melee emp, hmm news to me.

Or so I though thats what our Pally's were doing. We had them toss a fresh Judge each port. Maybe I was not paying attention well enough to the melee one (since I shoot the caster :P) but all I know is I had wisdom for the entire fight.

Requitas · 06/07/06, 1:49 PM

Maybe they were just contributing DPS? Either way, Vek'nilash is immune to magic and so should be immune to Judgements. Looks like we both missed that detail at first. :P

dfinberg · 06/07/06, 2:20 PM

I haven't done twins in a while (no time to raid), but I'm pretty sure that Vek'nilash was bugged and could be judged, at least at one point.

Heh. I just realized it's my twins that are keeping me from doing the twins. Exhausted parent humor :)

• Hamlet · 06/07/06, 3:34 PM

Ok, added in a Sc7/FrB12 pattern. It does seem a better initial cycle (before you hit 0 mana) than Sc7/AM8.

In general, I need to find a better way to pick out the optimal cycle automatically. Right now I'm just listing what I think are all the reasonable options (both for zero-mana and for starting) and taking the maximum, and there are probably cases where I've missed one. For example, my thinking is very JoW-centric. Will look into that.

Hamoshin · 06/07/06, 3:34 PM

Nah, it's pretty true that JoW doesn't come into play all that often as Requitas argued. How many bosses do you go all out dps on the entire time, only stopping to evocate or regen mana?

On Skeram I don't even need to Evocate, really. Renewing JoW on him and all of his adds after every split is largely a waste of effort and makes little-to-no difference in my dps. Sartura and the Bug Trio are two fights where it definitely helps, and Fankriss as well. On Huhuran I don't see how it would be possible to go all out until 30% without pulling aggro from the tanks, so mana isn't the limiting factor. If your guild is anything like mine, mages are on bug duty during the Twemps, and mana isn't much of a problem there either.

No one is disputing that the Paladin buffs give alliance mages an edge when it comes to mana-efficiency and thus dps, but the figures that Maledict posted are without a doubt exaggerated with regards to the vast majority of boss fights out there.

• Hamlet · 06/07/06, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Hamoshin

Nah, it's pretty true that JoW doesn't come into play all that often as Requitas argued. How many boss fights do you go all out dps on the entire time, only stopping to evocate or regen mana?

EDIT: Never mind, I get it.

flyinfungi · 06/07/06, 3:49 PM

Very Intresting data collected from this.

Not very good with excel so I hope these questions/suggestions aren't redundant.

Some things I would like to see if possible.

A graph of damage over time with multiple builds on them. Would be cool to see the crossover point is for fire, ice and arcane.

An option to allow trinkets such as ToEP, ZHC, Mind Quicking Gem, etc.

Add AP as an option and POM. Would be really nice to know for short short turn dps although i dont think you're aiming for that in the spreadsheet.

Some Questions

What is "Short" on your DPS scale there?

Did you take into consideration stacking Ignites and fireball dots (lol)

Is there a way for me to take scorch as my main spell for the entire fight? Im thinking you took fireball for dmg calculations whenever you had the scorch debuff up.

You asked how firemages played.

Goes like this.

Wait for enough Aggro
Fireball Spam or scorch spam depending on spec
Use Timers
Fireball Spam or scorch spam depending on spec

Or for the Super nonefficent pew pew pew fire mage and of course throw timers as always in there.
Fireball
fireblast
fireball
fireball
fireblast
fireball
fireball
fireblast

or change it with scorch with

fireblast
scorch
scorch
scorch
scorch
fireblast
scorch
scorch
scorch
scorch
fireblast
scorch
scorch
scorch
scorch

Soul · 06/07/06, 4:10 PM

I think that Fire mages will play a little differently after the patch. Main thing being that Imp. Scorch is now cheaper to get a 100% proc, so assuming Imp. Scorch gets its priority fixed, you could conceivably cast as follows (given 3/8 NW):

1. After the tank gets one or two hits in, spam Rank 1 Scorch to get 5/5 Imp. Scorch debuffs or until sufficient aggro is established, whichever takes longer.

2. Cast 9 Fireballs.
3. Cast Scorch
4. Repeat from 2.

Of course, the way priority is now, Imp. Scorch ranks with Deep Wounds and Fireball in terms of priority, so without a full-time Scorch spammer, it doesn't stay up. Grrr.

Depending on your gear/spec you might want to change things up for efficiency's sake or maximizing trinkets. This goes especially for Ignite chaining and using Combustion/Fireblast. Usually you'll use Scorches and Fireblast to try and prolong those uber Ignite strings since Scorch, Scorch, Fireblast is 3 spells in 3 seconds... decent odds of adding at least one more Ignite to the stack, which buys you 4 more seconds of burning.

• Hamlet · 06/07/06, 4:19 PM

How does Ignite work in 1.11?

Thrillho · 06/07/06, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

How does Ignite work in 1.11?

Based on empirical tests, exactly the same as it does in 1.10. It rolls, and it rolls to high numbers if you get lucky enough. In Naxx when I hit Combustion I've had Ignites ticking in the 1600 range on several occasions. Some people have said it doesn't roll on Test, but I've tested it many times, and I can pretty much guarantee you that it does. It's possible that there's a bug where Ignites aren't rolling all the time (ie: in a similar way, Ignite/Imp Scorch can actually be resisted, even if you crit/deal damage -- so dumb) but I personally haven't seen it.

Unless you were asking 'how does Ignite work in general' in which case I can clarify that too.

Bloodshot · 06/07/06, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Requitas

Whatever Brilliance. The point is that it's not up 100% of the time like a spreadsheet would have you believe.

Thanks for taking the time to refute my post point by point and actually miss the overall theme of it. Can't get anything by you.

It's not 100% like a spreadsheet, but good guilds manage to keep it up for a pretty long time. It speeds up things on trash, it matters on most bosses, and in some of them like C'thun? It amounts to nothing less than cheatery.

Ultramax · 06/07/06, 4:40 PM

Twins -> We have light and wisdom up on each. It takes 3-4 seconds, and it helps out alot.

Clearly one of them needs to be immune to your paladin chicanery.

Maledict · 06/07/06, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by Hamoshin

No one is disputing that the Paladin buffs give alliance mages an edge when it comes to mana-efficiency and thus dps, but the figures that Maledict posted are without a doubt exaggerated with regards to the vast majority of boss fights out there.

I would argue you accusing me of exageration.

In every fight most guilds in the game work on (MC & BWL), those abilities without a doubt play a big part. That's the majority of fights for most players in the game. So saying it doesn't work on the majority of fights is a fallacy.

Now sure, in AQ, there are fewer boss fights where it can be used. But it still can be used on many fights - and when it does, *bang* there's stupid discrepancy between the factions. You can't argue something isn't broken just because on a few fights you can;t do it - you still can on the majority of AQ40 fights, and where you can, it makes a vastly noticeable difference.

Yes, it's not going to be up all the time. And yes, on some fights, it's of no use. Or can't be applied - but given there is *absolutely* no equivalent, in any way, for casters on the Horde side, how can you even begin to argue that this is balanced?

HEck, it seems that JoW & BoW are the difference between a fire spec being viable and not being viable for raiding, and dealing damage where it counts (boss fights). That's a *big* difference.

---> Although hopefully, the inclusion of mana potions into the equasion might make things a bit clearer. Although I don't want to be buying mana potions forever... :)