Based on empirical tests, exactly the same as it does in 1.10. It rolls, and it rolls to high numbers if you get lucky enough. In Naxx when I hit Combustion I've had Ignites ticking in the 1600 range on several occasions. Some people have said it doesn't roll on Test, but I've tested it many times, and I can pretty much guarantee you that it does. It's possible that there's a bug where Ignites aren't rolling all the time (ie: in a similar way, Ignite/Imp Scorch can actually be resisted, even if you crit/deal damage -- so dumb) but I personally haven't seen it.
Unless you were asking 'how does Ignite work in general' in which case I can clarify that too.
Whatever Brilliance. The point is that it's not up 100% of the time like a spreadsheet would have you believe.
Thanks for taking the time to refute my post point by point and actually miss the overall theme of it. Can't get anything by you.
It's not 100% like a spreadsheet, but good guilds manage to keep it up for a pretty long time. It speeds up things on trash, it matters on most bosses, and in some of them like C'thun? It amounts to nothing less than cheatery.
No one is disputing that the Paladin buffs give alliance mages an edge when it comes to mana-efficiency and thus dps, but the figures that Maledict posted are without a doubt exaggerated with regards to the vast majority of boss fights out there.
I would argue you accusing me of exageration.
In every fight most guilds in the game work on (MC & BWL), those abilities without a doubt play a big part. That's the majority of fights for most players in the game. So saying it doesn't work on the majority of fights is a fallacy.
Now sure, in AQ, there are fewer boss fights where it can be used. But it still can be used on many fights - and when it does, *bang* there's stupid discrepancy between the factions. You can't argue something isn't broken just because on a few fights you can;t do it - you still can on the majority of AQ40 fights, and where you can, it makes a vastly noticeable difference.
Yes, it's not going to be up all the time. And yes, on some fights, it's of no use. Or can't be applied - but given there is *absolutely* no equivalent, in any way, for casters on the Horde side, how can you even begin to argue that this is balanced?
HEck, it seems that JoW & BoW are the difference between a fire spec being viable and not being viable for raiding, and dealing damage where it counts (boss fights). That's a *big* difference.
---> Although hopefully, the inclusion of mana potions into the equasion might make things a bit clearer. Although I don't want to be buying mana potions forever... :)
Actually, re: Ignites, a possible explanation for it.
I haven't personally tested this, but this seems like a plausible explanation for all the people saying "Ignite doesn't roll" while simulatenously my own experience on test showing that it was rolling. I didn't really look closely to see if it was ticking twice after a roll, or what.
If you crit a spell and put ignite on a target. then between the first tick (2sec after spell) and second tick(4 sec after spell) you get a second crit, then both ignites (the first and the second) will stop after the next tick (rather than getting 1 double ignite, followed by 1 single as expected)
Has anybody tested how does evocation works under 5s rule in 1.11 ?
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
Actually, re: Ignites, a possible explanation for it.
I haven't personally tested this, but this seems like a plausible explanation for all the people saying "Ignite doesn't roll" while simulatenously my own experience on test showing that it was rolling. I didn't really look closely to see if it was ticking twice after a roll, or what.
If you crit a spell and put ignite on a target. then between the first tick (2sec after spell) and second tick(4 sec after spell) you get a second crit, then both ignites (the first and the second) will stop after the next tick (rather than getting 1 double ignite, followed by 1 single as expected)
So now it's actually worse than it would be if they were all indepedent?
Actually, re: Ignites, a possible explanation for it.
I haven't personally tested this, but this seems like a plausible explanation for all the people saying "Ignite doesn't roll" while simulatenously my own experience on test showing that it was rolling. I didn't really look closely to see if it was ticking twice after a roll, or what.
If you crit a spell and put ignite on a target. then between the first tick (2sec after spell) and second tick(4 sec after spell) you get a second crit, then both ignites (the first and the second) will stop after the next tick (rather than getting 1 double ignite, followed by 1 single as expected)
So now it's actually worse than it would be if they were all indepedent?
Clearly someone just needs to take a paladin with them down to blasted lands, and low rank fireball/scorch a servant for a few hours a night for the next week or so parsing the data, and come back with an empirical curve fit for a couple different levels of crit :).
If ignite is working worse than what you'd expect independantly, I think I'll cry though :/.
Actually, re: Ignites, a possible explanation for it.
I haven't personally tested this, but this seems like a plausible explanation for all the people saying "Ignite doesn't roll" while simulatenously my own experience on test showing that it was rolling. I didn't really look closely to see if it was ticking twice after a roll, or what.
If you crit a spell and put ignite on a target. then between the first tick (2sec after spell) and second tick(4 sec after spell) you get a second crit, then both ignites (the first and the second) will stop after the next tick (rather than getting 1 double ignite, followed by 1 single as expected)
So now it's actually worse than it would be if they were all indepedent?
From what I've experienced dicking around in PvP with combustion, yes. My opening fireball will crit for say 2000 and then my successive fireblast for 1000 and I'll see a pair of 600 ticks. But if I twin crit on scorches for 750 or so each I'll see 150, 300, nothing. But perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention and it might have ticked for 150 afterwards. What I do know is you can no longer roll them in the old sense of additional crits refreshing the current stack and building it up to ridiculous levels.
Whatever Brilliance. The point is that it's not up 100% of the time like a spreadsheet would have you believe.
Thanks for taking the time to refute my post point by point and actually miss the overall theme of it. Can't get anything by you.
It's not 100% like a spreadsheet, but good guilds manage to keep it up for a pretty long time. It speeds up things on trash, it matters on most bosses, and in some of them like C'thun? It amounts to nothing less than cheatery.
No one is disputing that the Paladin buffs give alliance mages an edge when it comes to mana-efficiency and thus dps, but the figures that Maledict posted are without a doubt exaggerated with regards to the vast majority of boss fights out there.
I would argue you accusing me of exageration.
In every fight most guilds in the game work on (MC & BWL), those abilities without a doubt play a big part. That's the majority of fights for most players in the game. So saying it doesn't work on the majority of fights is a fallacy.
Now sure, in AQ, there are fewer boss fights where it can be used. But it still can be used on many fights - and when it does, *bang* there's stupid discrepancy between the factions. You can't argue something isn't broken just because on a few fights you can;t do it - you still can on the majority of AQ40 fights, and where you can, it makes a vastly noticeable difference.
Yes, it's not going to be up all the time. And yes, on some fights, it's of no use. Or can't be applied - but given there is *absolutely* no equivalent, in any way, for casters on the Horde side, how can you even begin to argue that this is balanced?
HEck, it seems that JoW & BoW are the difference between a fire spec being viable and not being viable for raiding, and dealing damage where it counts (boss fights). That's a *big* difference.
---> Although hopefully, the inclusion of mana potions into the equasion might make things a bit clearer. Although I don't want to be buying mana potions forever... :)
And yet Horde are still somehow able to progress. Seriously, I think you're putting way too much stock in what Paladins bring to a raid compared to Shamans.
Honestly, the only time your faction choice has ever mattered in progression was 100% deaggro Broodlord and untauntable drakes. Beyond that, Alliance perhaps has a more convenient raiding experience. But it's not like there's an encounter in the game that you just plain can't beat because you don't have Paladins.
So Frost Magery is pretty straightforward. You have one main casting mode, and it does nice damage, and has the efficiency to last through just about everything.
Fire is a bit more complex. Fireball chaincasting pushes significantly more damage than Frost ever will, but burns through mana far more quickly. But that much we already knew. The question is whether good use of other spells (Scorch, Fireball 5, and Missiles) makes it really practical. The key is that a Scorch-heavy mode of casting can seemingly equal or top Frost for DPS, and at less mana usage.
Above the DPS, Frost has one thing going for it (Ice Block). Ice Block is huge, and the minor apparent improvement from Frostbolt to Scorch probably doesn't make me go over. But Fire also has the ability to burn through mana for DPS that completely trumps that of Frost, and its real value depends on how often you get to take advantage of this--there are many times when you have ample mana.
Other complicating issues:
--Range. Frost gets to DPS at 36 yards, only needing to move in to 30 when you need to work in Missiles. Fire can only hold at 41 for pure Fireball spam. Most Fire usage will involve Scorch in some way, keeping you at 30. And when you want to really burn for DPS, you'll want to move into Fireblast range (20).
--Timers. Combustion + Trinket + Fire burst is a lot better than Trinket + Frostbolt spam
And yet Horde are still somehow able to progress. Seriously, I think you're putting way too much stock in what Paladins bring to a raid compared to Shamans.
Honestly, the only time your faction choice has ever mattered in progression was 100% deaggro Broodlord and untauntable drakes. Beyond that, Alliance perhaps has a more convenient raiding experience. But it's not like there's an encounter in the game that you just plain can't beat because you don't have Paladins.
I don't want to side track a great thread - but no-one has ever claimed that things are impossible for the Horde, or that Paladins make fights "instant win". They don't.
They do make a lot of fights significantly easier though, in many, many ways - from mana regen, to low aggro healing, to cleanse, to Blessing of Salvation, to Blessing of Kings. Windfury isn't exactly a good counter to all of that, especially with how the raiding game works.
Does it not seem silly to you that, undeniably, one side does find the vast majority of fights in the game easier because they are alliance and not horde? Doesn't that strike you as odd, that effectively if you raid the game had a hidden "Hard Mode" button? I hope you can understand how, after a while, it begins to grate for the Horde - especially when the hard maths, even if not applicable all the time, just looks plain *ugly*... :)
---
Anywho, back to the spreadsheet, and sorry for keeping derailing - I was going to ask for an 8 piece NW comparison, but then realised that it only makes a difference over the 60 second period really, as any time longer than that and it just speeds up the cyrcles that are already in place - it has no effect once you are OOM, for example, unless the fight lasts a very set certain amount of time.
Re. Fireball versus frostbolt - I dunno. I reset our damage meters for almost any boss fight, so being able to burn away on trash isn't that astounding. The only fight I can think of where the extra burn potential of fire is going to be useful is on Huruhan, Moam and the garoyles in Naxxramus so far. Compared with Iceblock & Improved Blizzard, that's a hard pair to beat - as well as Ice Barrier, which after the patch is actually a really good spell IMHO. Making it stack with PW:Shield is just nice. I definitely think I'm tending towards frost for raiding atm, unless mana potions have a *big* effect on fires dps output. And I can be botehred enough to farm them...
Everyone keeps bringing up mana potions. Why is there this assumption that mana potions will largely pull Fire ahead of Frost? Since Frost's main nukes are more efficient that then mana-hungry Fireballs, the marginal benefit of a static mana increase is often equal or greater for Frost.
Obviously, this only holds true in fights where the Frost Mage has a chance of running out anyway. In a lot of fights, the Frost Mage isn't going to run out, so he no marginal benefit from potions, while the Fire Mage gets to keep his high-mana cycle for a longer. But it's worth noting that outside of this finite zone (i.e. as soon as the Frost Mage's mana is strained), potions aren't especially beneficial to Fire.
I think it's because a lot of fights are in that particular zone, tbh. Most boss fights don't last 10 minutes - obviously once you hit that point, then fire is going to come up lacking no matter what. But for fights shorter than that, where frost isn't completely out of mana, then I think they will make a difference.
BAsically, I think adding mana potions in would push Fires DPS advantage over frost in the 3 minute and 6 minute category, especially for Horde players - and I reckon that might make it viable enough to consider as a Horde mage. ATM, with those numbers, I just can't logically see a good reason for going fire.
Hmm, I just realized I have to do some of the final computation of total damage for a fight in a more advanced way, or this really isn't going to be valid.
All the stuff about DPS/MPS numbers for particular cycles is great, but combining cycles to optimize damage while using M mana in time T is trickier than I'd thought.
And yet Horde are still somehow able to progress. Seriously, I think you're putting way too much stock in what Paladins bring to a raid compared to Shamans.
Honestly, the only time your faction choice has ever mattered in progression was 100% deaggro Broodlord and untauntable drakes. Beyond that, Alliance perhaps has a more convenient raiding experience. But it's not like there's an encounter in the game that you just plain can't beat because you don't have Paladins.
i also dont think that there is a remarkable imbalance between the factions. But there are some minor annoyances between mage/paladin in raids (alliance) and rogue/shaman pairs for horde.
Arawethion, i noticed that spreadsheet doesn't have a field for Arcane Concenctration (CC) talent. Do you ignore it effect, or its assumed every mage has it ?
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
06/07/06, 5:25 PM
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