Yes, context is very important. I'm sure most warlocks are perfectly able to keep mobs banished and lob out shadowbolts at the same time after a little bit of practise, but most can't do this perfectly. It's really less frustrating for the raid overall to have 2 warlocks exclusively banishing than to have lava elementals rampaging free and twoshotting healers. If you do not experience this kind of problems ever, it might be unreasonable overkill, but working up from the basics is not that bad of an idea... after all in Molten Core many are just learning to raid. We all started out inexperienced.

I'm just trying to say that even if you don't approve of his methods, they aren't necessarily as bad and/or badly motivated as you might think.

As a warlock class leader, when something affecting warlocks comes up we discuss it in class and if most of us disagree with raid leader we let them know most of us disagree. If this raid leader/class is insistant we fight our case in guild forums.

For cor I think your case is very easy just find a few video's of obviously good guilds with cor showing ideally on bosses you have tried but haven't beaten. Try linking them this thread also. could try starting it off on bosses or mobs where healing from physical attacks is easy and work up.

That sounds like the times I begged mages for amplify magic :)

Did anyone mention you should fill out a profile?

CoR does multiply the damage. in naxx every boss hits very hard and if demo-shout gets removed while CoR still remains you will get a mad hitting mob right there.

for mc you can do it no problem but in bwl again there are some bosses where you should not use it cause the health and tank equip is very scatchy.

fights where you need to wear resistance equip for example. firemaw will kill your mt with CoR up when he does his frenzy attack (2 hits at a time) directly after a shadow.

i don't know if the armor reduce scales...attack power does. so in my opinion cor is always a bad idea.

CoS and CoE are much more effective.

No offence, but im getting the distinct impression here you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

The only boss you would avoid using CoR on in naxx (in spider/abom/plague at any rate, we've only got instructor down in Deathknight... damn you gothik) is Maexnna during the stun period. Broodlord is one you want to avoid it on when you're low geared, but once you're hitting tanks in full wrath you can do it np.

How do you know what gear his tanks are in? And wtf is scatchy, its not even a word! >_< I'd disagree with you on the firemaw fight too, as in general you problems arent going to be a tank getting 2 hit there (assuming you have priests that can press thier greater heal key at a warning), its going to be someone a)standing in the wrong place or b) pulling agro and getting the raid hit with aoe.

As far as im aware frenzy isnt a double hit like thrash is, its simply a increased damage 'mode'for the mob, and isnt a issue if you have hunters that are capable of spamming their tranqshot keys at the right time.

And this last bit shows that unfortunatly, you fall into the group of people who are fearful of CoR with absolutely no idea what the effect will be on your tank. Seriously, go and test it, then come back and tell me honestly that you were right when you wrote this post.

Sorry, but this post has so much misinformation in it i felt i had to say something.

CoS is of far far less benefit to your average raid group as it only benefits warlocks/S priests (which you maybe have 4/5 max in a raid) whereas CoR benefits your warriors, your paladins, your feral druids (you might have some, if you have shadow priests :)) your rogues, and your hunters... Go ahead and check your damage meters and see who gets the bigger dps increase next MC you clear.

The raid dps increase from the armor reduction scales much better than the dps increase on your tank does, its a negligable increase in tank damage (providing you're careful where you use it) but a 10-20% increase in your raids physical DPS.

Demo Shout reduces mob damage by 20-22% or so
Improved Demo Shout brings it down further to about 28-30%
Curse of Reck roughly increases mob damage 10-12% or so, which is added before modifers to % attacks, Broodlord's MS or Vek'nilash's US(Yeah yeah he's immune I know). It also results in higher crits/crushes.

The only bosses you might have to worry about with this are ones where you tank has to move alot(Thaddius/Heigan come to mind), or ones that have frenzy and break though shield block and crush the tank repeatedly(Chrom/Mag/Gluth).

Moving bosses results in your back being turned or them getting you at an angle where you can't dodge/block/parry, which sucks, Thaddius crushes me more than any other boss in the game atm I think.

Frenzied bosses, knock off shield block in 2 seconds, then crush/crit you with a CoR modifier for additional pain.

It basically comes down to what's causing a raid wipe, if your tanks are dying for whatever reason against a very phsycial boss take CoR out of the equation and see if they live longer and your raid can work on execution, if it's a burn fight and you don't have a choice but to up the DPS for whatever reason keep CoR up. If it's on farm status, CoR should be up no question, especially if your tanks have outgeared the encounter.

I've seen Demo shout get pushed off by other raid effects and hunter stings. Can CoR be pushed off as well? Here is my problem with the theoretical aspect of it: if demo shout is pushed off and CoR stays and the mob does crushing blow, the chance of the tank surviving would be pretty low.

As someone said, if you've been doing the instance, BWL or MC, for a while then testing this isn't a big deal. If you use it on new content then use it constantly so you learn the new content with it in place if you like it.

It' really a prefernce of the raid cause you are always going to have one or two people going "the reason we can't do this is cause curse of recklessness is up."

Was that Genya? Figures...

Just saying "no way" without ever testing it is pretty fucking retarded. I've been putting it on pretty much everything since we were learning Ragnaros and it's never ever caused any problems (apart from when I hit the wrong key on Broodlord that one time and did CoR instead of CoA, but we don't talk about that).

As one of the MTs of my guild, as well as a DPS warrior depending on the fights, I can say that COR is a must for most fights. The mobs don't hit that much harder and its an overall increase in dps for several classes. Our typical raid make up has something like 7+ rogues and 8+ warriors. The COR on the mob gives a very significant amount of dps increase for these 15 people alone, not counting the hunters / paladins.

Also, because of the damage increase, it obviously means you kill the mobs faster. This is perfect for fights that have a timed enrage or the like, huhu comes to mind. It also means that less healing is required, overall, which is great for chain pulling.

As for a tank dieing from COR, if I die haveing COR on the mob wasn't the cause, normally its just my bad luck. On one of our past BWL clears, like 6-7 weeks ago, I was tanking Flamegor. Ok np, easy fight done it a lot of times. Halfway through the fight I get crit, and then his next attack crits. I was a little suprised since i was sitting at 425 defense or so. I get healed back up to full. Then about 10-15 seconds later...crit, a second crit, shadowflame, dead me. Now is that something to take cor off for? In the off chance something really wierd like that happens? No, thats just bad luck. Not having COR on Flamegor would have still killed me.

Just my opinion as a DPS warrior / MT that CoR is amazing and should be up for about 90-95% of the fights :D.

Best thing I can say is get your healers on your side. They're the people who really are going to take this hit, and they can be your strongest lobby.

I assure you, they don't want the fight lasting any longer than you do. CoR means slightly more dps on tanks, and if you clear it with your priest/druid/shaman/paladin class lead I'd say just put it on there.

It's not the tanks you need to convince because it's not like it's thier mana.

Though I'd say CoR on garr if you kill all his adds might be fun....

Hmm, so, for the most part, CoR should be a safe Curse to apply?

Out of curiosity:

Blackwing Lair - I get the impression, that it's safe to use on everything except for: Broodlord Lashlayer, Flamegor, Chromaggus, and Warrior Nef Call

Can you use it on any of these four bosses? Sometimes our hunters seem to have problems with keeping tranq shots organized during the Chromaggus fight. Last night we wiped due to the fact that they didn't get their tranqs off in time below the 20% mark. (Sometimes they're great, other times they're a pain in my ass.) Would it be a good or bad idea to use it here? Just because of their inconsistency, I lean towards not wanting to have it applied.


Ahn'Qiraj - While we have yet to get Sartura, I'm curious, is it safe to put this on Huhuran, even post-Enrage?



Naxxramas - What about: Patchwerk, Maexxna, Gluth, Thaddius?


Thanks. I'm a theory crafter and a raid leader so I'm always trying to keep up on this info.

This also ties into the info I'm trying to get for Amplify Magic. I wanted to use it, but I'm not sure if it makes a considerable difference.

We put it up on almost every mob except broodlord afaik. if things look like they are going bad you can always have the warlock who is responsible for putting Curse of Recklessness up put up Curse of Agony. Since it just overrides the COR its easy to get rid of COR if you put it up accidently or can't keep up with the healing necessary.

I'm personally of the opinion that any curse/buff setup that relies in any way on changing said curse/buff because of a nontrivial change is a really losing strategy.

To wit- changing a curse on warrior call on Nef (or shaman if you're horde, or priest/druid if you have no healing...ect). If that one warlock who was in charge of CoR is down, that's a protected curse (gl bumping it!) that you just have to deal with. Not a good thing.

As for Amp magic, I think it's a good idea if the boss is primarily physical and there's not a lot of damage being done by dots/repeated aoes. Good idea on Razorgore, ebonroc...bad on flamegor.

I agree with you that it is dangerous to do. I meant that more as a suggestion to see if the OP's guild could use COR. Throw it up on a mob, if the healers / tanks can handle it keep it up. If they look like they are struggling put COA up right away.

As for Nef I'm almost positive that its always up for us. Yeah it can hurt a little but just suck it up and keep going. I doubt we would have it up if we had shamans though. Nef + windfury + COR must be pretty bad, just my thoughts though.

We use Curse of Recklessness on every mob except Maexanna in Naxx.

In AQ40, everything should get CoR. Except the Twin Emps for obvious reasons.

If you're doing BWL in Tier 1/2 gear, then I'd reccomend not having it on for Broodlord Lashlayer, a heavy damage Chromaggus post-enrage. Nef is probably also bad for Horde, as Windfury/Warrior call could be too brutal. The healing is so light on that encounter though.

Make sure to keep up Demo Shout and Thunderclap. Those do a lot to lower the damage going to the tank.

Isn't rogue kick flat physical damage? Should be the best way to test these things.

Actually CoR is something we use on Nef I think as well.

I was just emphasising that as a specific example of stop/start, where it can be pretty rough to fine tune. I don't think the dps is high enough to really worry about, but that's a nasty stop/start situation that requires an absurd level of control for 'some' benifit.

Specifics of BWL-
Not on brood till you can do it without flasking I'd say. That's a pretty good benchmark.
Nef's reallynot going to be a huge issue even with WF totem, he just hits like a little girl.
Chromag it's fine to use as long as you don't refresh when he's under about 30-35% (depending on learning dps).
Firemaw MIGHT not be worth it if you struggle on him, simply becuase of the incoming dps.

For Nef, just push it off during Warrior calls.

I'm surprised anyone doesn't use it at Patchwerk. Ending the fight at least 20 seconds earlier (quick estimate) is quite valuable, and serves to make things easier on the healers in its own right.

Our healers could go all night on it - The MT is the only tank we've lost in months... hence the reason :)

We've done Patch with 4 healers on the MT and CoR up for 6 minutes and 55 seconds. They did a pretty awesome job, but it goes to show that not only is it doable, in this case not doing it would have wiped us.

Edit: Not sure about my math. :P