With patch 1.11 coming out next week, I figured it was appropriate to start speculating about the possible Rogue changes. From various posts I've seen in the WoW forums (after sorting through the various "nerf mages/hunters/warriors/locks/priests/shammies/pallies" junk) I came to my own conclusion that most likely the Subtlety tree will see the most action if they're doing a tree revamp. Various issues with Rogues have recently been fixed: SnD misses, Blind being parried, not being able to poison in stealth, etc. etc. So it begs the question, how much of a change will it be? Are current 60 Rogues ready to rethink all their specs and approaches to PvE/PvP?

I'd like to think the key focus will be bug fixing and addressing scaling issues between our abilities (such as eviscerate). Though, I've always dreamed they'll changed the mechanics of strength and/or agility. Adding a talent as a %base, such as 100% strength buff or 100% strength to additional AP could work instead of actually touching the mechanics. I could easily stand for a Hunter Survivalist or Lighting Reflexes ^^ That too, is more dreaming. Realistically, the entire first teir of sub talents, all 15, need some form of condensement and redesign. I'd like to see Imp SS removed and the cost set to 40 by default. Improved Eviscerate should be removed and the functionality changed. Agression could use a minor buff. Blizzard seemed to address talents classes felt they "had" to pickup, and while I don't agree with that at all, they could easily save us a bit with the core assassination talents and core 10 sub for daggers. Last but not least, poison talents defiantely need condensed into one +damage to all poisons talent and one +hit to all poisons talents (and possibly buffed). They could go ahead and create new functionality for thrown weapons, but it will never surmise bows and guns, so they need not waste their time. I could go on into what the rogue forums have yielded in terms of more liberal ideas. Sprint functioning as an energy drain, raw +movement speed% similar to feral druids, ranged stun or cripple functionality, ranged poisoning functionality, etc... Some of the ideas are the wet dreams of 12 year olds, others are actually quite interesting and very reasonable in my opinion (such as a cooldownless sprint that drains energy).

My 2 cents.

My first priority is a way to allow combat dagger rogues to have access to AR etc. as much as sword builds. I don't think opportunity belongs to subtlety from PVE perspective. Considering first 5 points in subtlety is pretty much a waste in pve situations.


edit: btw. where did they mention that the patch comes next week?

subtley 31 point talent will become 15% more agi.

Imp backstab will be moved to where imp garrote.

Ruthlessnes and rentless strikes will become a 5pt talent and will be switched with imp poisons, which will be moved to 1 talent

Basic SnD attack speed% will be nurfed to 25%, imp SnD will become 1% attack speed increase per point.

Vigor will become 20engery and not stack with 5 piece NS.

Throwing weapons and Imp Kick will change spots.

Imp SS will be total redone, to have a chance on hit effect, and the energy cost will be 40.

Good call. I heard an idea floating around about a potential throwing weapon pouch that has stats that goes in the ranged slot, and thorium shells could be converted to knifes like how they can be converted to arrows. And there has been much talk of a long range talent (most likely on a minute+ cooldown) that would prevent kiting. I think a possible tree restructure could be in terms of weapons. i.e. daggers, swords, maces/fist. Not sure how that would work out in terms of PvE specs vice PvP spec, just a thought though. Personally I would much prefer some sort of party buff, as we're the only class without one. I was thinking of a reduced threat buff of some sort, since tranquil air has to take the place of WF, and that's just nonsense.

Just based on how long 1.11 has been on the test server. And the backround downloaded has stopped, meaning everyone already has the patch, just waiting for it to go live.

why haven't they made a sarcasm font yet?

That's pretty shaky speculation.

And stop wishing for a +% agi talent, it's not going to happen. Rogues need a slight dps tweak, not a huge one.

The only thing I am hoping for is a talent that gives +10 weapon skills, likely in increments of 2. Assuming a cap of +10 weaponskill, this would give humans the advantage of saving some talent points while allowing other rogue races to be equally viable with swords.

If they're not careful about breaking combat daggers, Human sword rogues could be the unrivaled #1 dps spec in 1.12. Allowing one race to be the best at the class in PvE is lousy.

Haha, that's messed up. I was sitting there planning out in my head how all that would work, and realized that would be a major nerf to combat daggers and a buff to combat swords. I was prepping a nasty letter to the Devs in my head when I saw your last post. I'd be upset if I didn't think I would have done the same thing, had I thought of it first.

31 Sub = 15%, what's the reasoning behind that? Who would even bother making the sarcrifice to attain it? 15% Agility doesn't merit a 31 point talent and I don't think the sub tree is the proper place. Moving Imp BS to Sub is another nerf, because it stretches our necessary points further across the trees. In fact... I don't agree with any of the your suggestions save for the Vigor buff, which I think is lacking. It should be 20 Energy as a 4/4 25pt req. and a new 31pt talent should replace it.

Instead of bothering, they need to give us 2 or 3 ranged abilites not unlike how Hunters have 5 or 6 melee abilites. That's all. Auto-shot would be wonderful too, but hunters would whine that we no longer have to spam a button. Restructing the tree of weapon relations is asking far too much and could yeild negative, nuetral, or positive results. That doesn't mean much unless you specify would sort of changes you'd like to see. A party buff would be nice, possibly a 31pt talent aura?

Edit to Emila: I wasn't sure if that was sarcasm or not. I give it a 3/10 for lack of true cynicism and exaggeration. How about malice reduced to a 3 point talent, imp SS removed entirely, 10% agility at 31 sub, Adren Rush on a 10 mintue cooldown, and 5/5 imp Evis and SnD for the same totals as current? ^^

Playing my preist just reminded me that some [5/5 -> 3/3 with the same total] changes may be merited.

I'll agree Wodin, but that's regarding the raid-related changes. I assume you're semi-walking the line that instead of "fixing" the class, they'll improve the raid encounters? The PvP changes are very insignificant in 1.11, to me - more like bugs fixes.

Excellent post located at:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=1#post1194347

It addresses what most of the rogue community feels are the key soft spots in the class, and while solving/buffing all 8 points may be overpowering, it's a sense of direction. I wholeheartedly agree with points 1 and 2 and find the rest to be absolutely valid. I just don't expect all of them to be addressed.

No, I think that the rogue talent trees are going to have to undergo a significant revamp. But what needs to be addressed and to what magnitude will depend on 1.11, and thus it's too early to comment.

I'm honestly afraid of the review and hope they don't change anything except fix a few broken/useless talents. Considering how confusing the Shaman review has been (shamans were fine in PvP, especially elemental, and thats what they buffed?) I have no idea what they'd do to rogues if they did a major review. So I'm hoping its very minor.

I do think it's nearly impossible at this point to have informed assumptions as to what the changes will be. Since as you said, we'll have to see how raiding changes with the Shammy healing tree buff, and the Mage frost tree buff respectively. Mages in my guild who were previously split fire/frost so they could still PvP are now talking about 10/41 fire/frost specs which will certainly boost our DPS in MC/Ony/BWL, and shammies can now heal 28% better with Healing Wave spells, so that's a significant boost to overall raid effectiveness. And to go back a patch further to the Priest Disc/Holy buffs, that has certainly made priests even more effective as healers.

So all these recent raid buffs begs the question..Is Blizzard trying to make raiding easier, so that more guilds can get to AQ40/Naxxramas to prepare for the expansion? From a business standpoint if raiding becomes too difficult for the less hardcore gamer, why would he stay with the game? It has also been true with Blizzard that when they make games they try and keep players into it as long as possible. Unfortunately I fear if they make things too easy, they could lose their hardcore gamer base.

But Wodin you're right, once 1.11 goes live, we'll be able see the full impact of those changes. But I think beyond just what they have up their sleeves for Rogues, we will have an even better estimation as to Blizzard's vision for raiding pre-expansion. Whether it's trying to significantly increase the number of epicced out 60's, or simply changing up the raiding styles, we shall see.

My main hopes are never going to happen:

Ruthlessness/Relentless Strikes being made either A. a Combat talent, or B. a lesser talent point investment.

Lethality being made either A. A a 3 point talent, or B. a 5 point talent that affects white crits as well (see Mortal Shots/Impale), but still leave Ambush out of it.

Consolidation of Tier 1 Subtlety talents with Opportunity being placed in Tier 1 and Improved Ambush as Tier 2.

Rupture being made to scale with gear in such a way that offhand weapon DPS is taken into account as well (Say, tooltip MH+OH White DPS, with each tick having a chance to crit equivalent to 1/2 tooltip crit chance).

Improved Feint talent somewhere in the Combat Tree, perhaps in the spot of Imp Sprint.

But again, not going to happen, so it's a moot point.

I expect to see some slight changes to things like Throwing Spec (gives +5% STR, Agi, and Stam with a throwing weapon equipped), and maybe fucking around with the placement of Premed and Preparation, but not much more.

I'd love to see Riposte become a trained skill, as well as, conceivably, Hemorrhage, but not going to happen.

Really? That's what rogues are asking for?

1) (not losing combo on switches) is bullshit and will not happen, it's even more part of the core mechanic then TM is for warriors.

2) (scaling finisher) Yeah, definitly.

3) (Rogue cooldowns need to be lowered across the board. ) Wtf? That post lose ton of credibility there.

Rest is pretty much the usual crap. We suck, blah blah.

I do agree that rogue need more utilies in general, but that mean better designed encounters, not more dps.

What if you're at the stage where even using feint you're dealing as much damage as you can without pulling aggro?

I can't see rogues getting a +15% agility talent. That would be a DPS boost beyond the likes of any class, for the class that *generally* dominates single target damage dealing already. It would also really mess around with all current itemisation in the game...
Wodin is right though, in that until 1.11 goes live and the mage stuff is seen in action we can't really tell how far they will push Rogues DPS. I honestly didn't expect the mage talents to survive this long as they have done - every frost mage gaining +6% to hit, +10% to crit and -30% aggro is going to make quite a difference I feel. Whether its enough to overtake rogues is another matter.

SOmething will surely be done about the talent trees though. It always feels strange as a rogue, planning your talents, when you realise almost all your best talents are in the first 3 tiers of each tree.

Scroll up, that person was kidding. ;)

Unfortunately, the idea of a +15% agility talent, or agility giving 2 AP and strenght giving 0, is one that isn;t a joke to a lot of people across the boards - it's even been mentioned here on a number of occasions. Not sure where the rumour comes from, but people still hope it seems! :)

(And, after the Shaman review, or the "Woops, here's a completely different mage review!", who knows what Blizzard will do! )

I find it best to say that we should undergo a significant revamp, but I'm too scared shitless of what that could entail. The track record of communication between the rogue community and Blizzard has well... I'm sure you're deeply aware Wodin ;)

As optimistic as I'd like to be, I find it too futile and energy consuming. If Bonescythe and the case of the DD Chest are any indication of the future, things we get far worse before better (if they ever do). So here's to drink and jubiliation if I'm surprised.