Seeing that 1.11 is on dawn and taking a look at our current DKP system, how old and flawed and unfair it has become, our leaderteam decided to take a fresh start for Naxxramas and start over with a new and fresh DKP system especially for this instance.

After some research we regard the zerosum system as the only valid option, since it rules out all the problems we currently have, such as inflation, unfair advantages of old members, etc.

We are using the EQDKP solution, for which I have added the zerosum plugin found in their forums. Yet unfortunately we have one real big issue.
This is DKP for farming and wiping.

Currently we are regarding DKP as a currency you gain for strengthening the raid, be it by farming pots/consumables or learning a new tactic with endless wiping. I still feel that brining in so much time, effort and passion should be awarded properly, and this is by DKP.
(Just as an example. Yesterday we downed C'Thun. Without such DKP for the endless process of wiping, we never ever would have been able to motivate enough members to finally down him. There are such situations where only a massive sweetener (read DKP) can help you).

Similar, the excellent explanation of a zerosum system on Curse Gaming features so called lotto RPPs, which equals the DKP earned by others purchasing items aswell as wiping/etc.

Now my question is, does any guild using this forum have a similar system, i.e. award points for wiping in a zerosum system?
I would like to hear your solution for not letting inflation into this system and especially the website solution (preferrably for eqdkp).

Thanks in advance.

See this thread
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6924
post #18, #19 by Log and Sirloin for an example of how to make a Zero sum system award *time* devoted to guild scheduled activities rather than rewarding players for kills they happened to be present for.

Those suggestions are really good but I can see it'd be very painful working out DKP for a raid where people are coming and going, have to leave after a certain boss for RL stuff or are on the waiting list, etc.

I like these solutions very much aswell, but can someone provide a web solution for such a system?

We of Magnae Mammae of Turalyon (EU) use a zero sum system which originally was purely based on drops, but has been modified to make incentive DKP (IDKP) possible for wipes on new bosses.

Here's what we do.

For bosses/instances that are on farm, we figure out what the approximate average DKP value of drops is per boss (drops that are actually given to raiders, not disenchanted). Then we give the boss a fixed dkp value which is lower than this average. This is the amount of DKP that raiders get when we kill that boss.

For example, let's say Golemagg usually drops items which are worth 120 DKP in total. We might decide to value a Golemagg kill 60 DKP.

What does this mean? On a full MC run, more DKP is paid by the winners of loot than is gained by the raid because of kills. For example, loot winners paid 1100 DKP in total for all loot, and the raid gained 700 DKP for boss kills. That means, right after the MC run, our DKP is not zero-sum: we lack DKP.

To make the system zero-sum again, we need to give people DKP while not gaining any loot. Hey look, we could wipe a few times on some new boss, give every raider present 10 DKP, and voila! We are back at zero-sum.

So, our system is not zero-sum at every point in time, but it is always "almost zero sum". Sometimes a bit above zero, sometimes a bit below.

This system works pretty well. People who don't need anything from MC can still go there to gain a bit of DKP, and people who spend time learning an encounter are rewarded as well.

Oh, next to the DKP system, we also have a Credit system. You gain credits by providing the raid with Flasks, Dark Iron Ore, Greater Nature Protection Potions, etc. You spend credits to buy certain items from the raid bank, like Fiery Cores, AQ20 class books, Obsidian Shards, etc. This way the people who invest extra time in the raid also get rewarded.

The othe roption is to do what we do, and spread the DKP awarded over the full weeks raiding, and only update the DKP earned once a week.

Effectively, you treat the entire weeks raiding as one big raid, run it through a spreadsheet to get the accurate numbers, and then deduct the penalties as appropriate.

It means your still zero sum, but rather than rewarding for a particular night, you're rewarding for the entire week - it's not perfect, but it does vastly spread the DKp out more. It also fixes the problem of a fast 4 hour BWL run being worth far more than 2 AQ practcie nights - doing this turns a weeks raiding into purely "dkp per hour", so the longer you raid, the more dkp you get.

Here's the web solution I designed for my "weekly null" system. It looks extremely plain (read: bad; making it look good is last on my todo list), but its highly functional and extremely easy for me to add my raids, and view DKP. You can see it at http://www.wowtrauma.com/dkp/standings.html

I never intended to distribute it, but if its something a lot of people are interested, I may be persuaded to release the source and the db schema.

A list of some highlight features in no particular order:

Automated raid import from EQDKP Raidtracker XML. It takes me less than a minute to add a complete raid.
New items are automatically looked up on thott and allakazam, and priced according to my guilds pricing policy
Easy-to-use player DKP comparison
Simple to weight raids, audit raids, and finalize weeks (finalizing a week takes one click)

My guild had a similar issue when we went to a zero sum system. Similar to many guilds, we incent our members with DKP to attend learning attempts. Unfortunately this rapidly became an issue because we started noticing a significant amount of inflation. Our soution is as follows:

Each learning attempt is worth 2 DKP. That is, everyone in the raid receives 2 DKP. So, if you are learning C'Thun and you make 5 attmpts at him, you receive 10 DKP. Assuming 40 people are in the raid, that's 400 DKP worth of inflation into your system. In order to get rid of the inflation, we take the total number of points awarded to the raid (in this case 400) and divide it by the number of people on the DKP roster. (For us, ~50). The result is then deducted from every person on the raid roster. That math works out like this:

Inflation

40 people attending the raid at 10 DKP each = 400 DKP inflation.
10 people not attending the raid receive nothing = 0 DKP inflation

Removing Inflation

50 people lose 8 DKP

40 people attending the raid still gain 2 DKP
10 people not attending the raid lost 8 DKP

This allows us to keep our zero sum system in place while still rewarding for learning attempts. While your actual DKP total does not really go up that much from the learning attempts, your relation in DKP to people that do not attend will improve rather rapidly. Note it improves at the same rate (10 DKP) as if there had been no DKP subtraction.

That's pretty hot. EQDKP is killing us and it's really hard to find anything on the web because everyone is coding stuff for their own guild and rarely releasing. I'm after something fairly simple, just does zero-sum DKP and allows people to enter/leave raids in progress (or maybe imports from raidtracker somehow). I for one would be interested in some source for this, even if it's just a "here's a zip, figure it out yourself" kind of deal.

Meanwhile this is my favourite solution aswell, as I have read this mutliple times now on different forums where I asked.

BTW, since some drops are known in Naxxramas now, has anyone already thought of the scale for DKP on those?

We price our Zero Sum system based on the ilvl of the item, it's quality, and it's slot. If that sounds interesting to you, I could c/p our system here.

It's an excellent system for pricing, and has saved us a huge amount of headaches.

Yes, I'd be interested in hearing this as well, as we were looking to standardize our post-expansion pricing in a very similar manner.

We are also actually going to be changing to an ilvl-based pricing system. Basically what we'll be doing is taking the ilvl of the item, multiply it by a slot multiplier, and bam that's the price. The ratios for armor are pretty much directly the ratios from the Hyz itemization thread. For instance legs/helm/chest have a 0.1 multiplier, while wrists have a 0.054 multiplier. The weapon ratios had to get adjusted though, since 1h weapons are like 0.04 or some such in the Hyz thread, which is way too low.

Then we just have an additional multiplier that can get applied to the item, based on the quality. For instance resist items will be 25% whatever the ilvl*slot result is....legendaries probably 150% (that's what we're discussing atm). Previously we used a pricing system which was based on item stats, which worked fine for the most part, but the main issues were figuring out how to price new stat mods that got added, and also we never quite correctly got shield and weapon pricing. The new system should also help get an exact parity in cost...since for instance an ilvl 81 cloth bracer costs just as much as an ilvl 81 leather one.

The issue there, though, is desirability and increase in cost.

Doomhide: iLvl 71
Bloodfang: iLvl 75

The increase in cost is not commensurate with an increase in cost or desirability. The person who loots the Bloodfang is paying more DKP for an inferior item.

Hm, yes, you can make high iLvl items which are crap (such as the original rogue T3 set before its change on the PTR) and inferior to lower iLvl items.
Though, most people still tend to want these items, especially if they are set items.
Maybe it's because they just want the set or maybe because they simply don't know better. ;)

This is true, but also a bad example. Doomhide follows an itemization formula that doesn't exist any longer, where AP was allowed on items along with agility / strength. Obviously this doesn't happen anymore, but Doomhides were so good that they hung around for a long time due to exploiting their points for maximum desirability. Also Bloodfang gloves have an Immune to Disarm mod on them that appears to cost nothing so are not exactly undesirable.

Int doesn't give a meaningful amount of spellcrit. It's not doubledipping as much as that the mana on the item happens to give a trivial amount of crit. Dodge/Agi and Str/Block are similar. Agi + Crit is a bit abusive on warriors and rogues, but nowhere to the degree that str/ap is on them. Spirit/Mana Regen isn't done much. The only post-MC items that comes to mind is the neutral BoN ring and a couple of priest set items.

Fang of Venoxis.
T2.5 Paladin, Mage, Shaman set pieces.

You're looking at it from a "Gear Progression" standpoint rather than a "Development Progression" standpoint.

We use a fairly similar system, except we go for a 2 week period (largely a legacy from the times when we only could do 1 MC and half of BWL in a week, which lead to large fluctuation based on drop luck per week). We award points based on what drops - distributed based on activity during the period. On our main raids we give standby players full points. We also hold a number of optional raids where no standby spots are available - however you can only use the points gained from optional raids to make up for lacking main raid participation. Miss BWL? Do 2xMolten Core. There are two main raid targets: BWL and AQ40. Most other things including ORBs are optional.

However, our system isn't strictly zero sum: During learning raids we give out extra points not related to any item drops. Once we run out of new content such as now in between AQ40 and Naxxramas we start working out our dept by only awarding half the points that would normally be given. In other words, we are advancing points from future drops and giving them out for the learning effort. The logical conclusion from this scheme is that items will have to have a static price rather than bidding. We have also opted to use a 'full refund' system where (upon satisfying certain conditions) you will receive the full price of your previous item deducted when taking a new one for a particular slot.

Thus there are very distinct phases in the system:
1) high activy learning periods when a lot of points are awarded for activity
2) hibernal farming periods where you can take a month's holiday and not fall much behind

Time spent on learning raids ends up being 4-5 times as valuable as farming content. We find this to be a fairly good system - there's no reason to award many points for farming since enough people always turn up. If there starts to be trouble getting people for farming, we'll have to rethink this obviously

Sure, there's going to be a slight pricing discrepency when you have an item like Doomhide Gauntlets is min/maxed more or less. But, for the most part they really don't min/max items anymore, and for the vast majority of cases the ilvl pricing is "close enough."

Anyone have an addon that put ilvl (and any other relevent information for educated players) into the tooltip?

We have looked at ilevel pricing - but the problem is, ilevel seems completely flawed basis for pricing items.

Stat allocation matters *so* much in the game, and items can be so different depending upon just a few choices, that I wish Ilevel had never been unearthed. Even with a range to price the items over, you end up needing such a huge range of points to be able to accuratedly price some of the wierd junk out there that you may as well not have the ilevel points thing at all. You need to be able to drop the points a *lot* to make some items worth buying... :)