Hello I was hoping that I could get a little bit of advice on what strategy would be the most effective for Razorgore. Our guild has had 3 nights of searious attempts at him and we have been in phase 2 but we have difficulty sustaining enough players from phase 1 into phase 2. Frist off let me explain the strategies we have attempted and what went wrong with them. Also for gearing factor we have about 1.5 -2 months of full MC and all Ony's worth of epics. We didn't designate gear to our MT so 2-3 "Tanks" are geared in 3-5 might. We used to have 2-3 more raiders on a night then needed for the raids and since our venture into BWL is has slipped signiffacantly unfortuantly. I feel that we have switched strats on razor too many times so any suggestions, advice, and/or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

1. 4 Tanks Kite Legos w/ Hunters pulling Dragonspawn and Dps killing Mages (Orb=Rogues x2).

Now this is what we attempted our first night in bwl and it seemed to work pretty well we got down to 6 eggs before we called it. The problem we were having is not all the hunters were able to kite efficently and the healers were getting killed from healing aggro trying to keep the Tank kiters up. We didn't seem to get overrun with mages we kept them in line moderatly well. Once our healers died all the kiters took a dirt nap. We did use the aoe fireball to get aggro at around 10-8 eggs left when one of our tank kiters dropped. We sacrifice the rogues in phase 1 due to the face we are useless in phase 2. We never attempted this strat again after this night.

2. 2 Tanks Kiting All the Dragonspawn on the 2 Platforms while Dps kills everything (Orb=Rogue then MT).

This was what we attempted our second night in BWL. Now this is the strat that we have been most succesfull with our tanks are very good at maintaining aggro on all the Dragonspawn and kite effectivly with 4 designated healers per tank. The healers stand on the platforms for LoS. We then disperse the dps w/ 1 tank (2 Druids 2 Warriors) to each corner and dps the orcs down as fast as possible giving priority to the mages. The problem we have encountered here is we get overrun with Orcs at about 10-8 eggs left and we have to use the aoe fireball and then mass fear and kiting untill the last eggs can be brought down. I feel that we lack the dps to use this strat effectivly becuase after the aoe is used up the raid is reduced down to about 12 ppl with healers being the minority in that number.

3. 2 Tanks Kiting All the Dragonspawn and 4/5 Shaman Kiting all the Legos in the Middle Square (Orb=Rogue then MT).

This strat has failed to impress me because we lose the healin on the kiting tanks and the corner dps for mages. The Shaman also seem to die far earlier than what we lose in Strat #2 . The shaman use earthbind in the corners. and frost shock. We have gotten to 12-15 left before we lose 2/3 shaman what happens after we lose them though is far worse than the other strats. After the kiters go down then the healers get owned and we wipe.

Sorry for the explinations being breif it is getting late so I cut the later ones shorter. I am the primary orb controller along with a fellow rogue. I think that I am efficient in my pathing but I find the usage of the aoe fireball to fullxuate too much between strats. I personaly feel that we do better without it becuase the atmosphere after I vanish and dump aggro and die seems far more chaotic then prior to it but my officers seem to think that we need to blow it once our first healer goes down and when shit starts hitting the fan. Again I know it is almost impossible to picture our situation due to all the variables but if there is any advice that you have it would be greatly appricated.

Try:
Hunter/Druid/Warlock CC/Fear/Kite Dragonkin.
Shaman kite Legionnaires for the first, I don't know, 1/3 of phase 1.
MT on Orb for the first part of Phase 1. At some point, he starts doing fireballs and builds up aggro on the Legionnaires so that they'll follow him instead.
At this point, the MT goes into a kite of his liking, figure 8, circle, whichever he prefers. Rogue goes on the Orb, ready to bring Razor to a pre-set corner when all eggs are down (ie. put him near that corner).

After the orb goes down, everyone with a deaggro fires it, and waits on DPS for the tanks to get into a set rotation.

One thing that has to be mentioned is that healers really should strive not to heal that much in Phase 1. A shield here and there, or a renew, if needed, and people should be pretty aggro-conscious in phase 2.

Rogues aren't worthless, they just need to be ready to hop out and bandage pretty frequently, and should have abiout 4k-4.1k unbuffed to withstand a warstomp/fireball volley combo.

Bill: As far as Vael... if you can get at least 4-5 tanks some Dark Iron pieces (Helm should be a given), and teach them to turn the dragon when they get aggro..., well, he should be a piece of cake.

My guild has the tendency to use rather complicated strats, and the one we currently use would probably fill several pages if written down, but I can give some hints:

We use shamans to collect the legionaires from the ramps and the corners, and 2 warriors with piercing howl to kite them, this prevents a whipe if a shaman dies.
The dragons are kitet by hunters, sleept/feared by druids, locks and the controller, mages are killed by rogues and other dps.

But try not to stick to your strat too closely, understand that there are roughly 40 mobs, and if each player keeps just one mob busy you'll win. Every class can kite, even priests. Tell people that if they get aggro they have to run, no matter what they were doing, staying alive needs to be the top priority for everyone. Phase two is a piece of cake if you have at least 2-3 tanks and enough healers alive after phase 1.

we used to have a lot of problems with Razorgore, but these days we just get the Hakkar-Buff and one-shot him every time.

Congradulations on your success and I hope that you have some better luck on Vael. I am grateful for your advice. I feel that our shaman kiting attempt was going bad due to the fact that we had shaman droping farley quickly. I think that the shielding would help but agian we would lose our healing for our tank kiters. Now in our first attempt the hunters did kite the dragonspawn but we had problems there too. I feel that our warriors learned the kiting routine very quickly and the shaman and the hunters are hurting trying to meet their standard. I understand that sticking to one strat and perfecting it would be best but our guild is a democracy so therefore if someone has a vaild opionion we attempt it. I will stress that we stick to one of our previous strats before we attempt anything new unless someone else can provide a far easier solution.

In response to your question yes all of our members are speced for pve. As for experiance though we have 2 members that have experience past Razor in our guild atm so I feel that gettin our players acclimated to the area a little bit more will help. As for the wiping in phase 2 twice it was due to the fact that we didn't have enough healers up after the transition to maintain the tanks. Both the tanks did have at least 200FR when we started phase 2.

On top of any new strategies or modifications to the onese provided so far any advice regaurding the AOE fireball useage would be helpful.

Of the 3 tactics you mention, warrior on each platform with 2 healers kiting dragonkin, while rest of raid is split up in corners nuking everything, is the one that will make you most happy in the long run, once you perfect it.

A few points of note:
It takes a while for tanks to get the right running pattern down to avoid getting snared, and avoid taking too much damage. Just stick with it and it'll come eventually.
Use ctra player targets to get all the dps in each corner to assist a rogue, have the rogue focus on mages, and when no mages up, assist nuke leggies down 1 by 1. Corner tanks ignore mages and focus on gathering leggies and building aggro. The assist rogue should possibly assist tank when he has time to kill a leggie, so that the mob he hits will have some sunders going. Also remember not to tank leggies on the ramp, multiple cleaves while kiting tank is running past = bad.

Agreed.

We generally have 6-7MT boxes up, one assist per corner and 3-4 MTs for Grethok/adds and Razorgore.

Keep healing to a bare minimum in Phase 1, and all will work out eventually, let Rogues stunlock mages most of the way, interrupt spells with Kick and/or Counterspell, etc.

Another little trick is that, while it might seem to make sense to have the orb controller on the platform, we've had better luck with the Orb controller on the ledge underneath the orb.

The idea of having druids battle rezzed is a good one, though druids shouldn't be dying anyway, given that they should be sleeping the dragonkin rather than healing in phase 1 (note: Have the dragonkin CCers "mark" their mobs with Curse of Shadows, Faerie Fire and Hunter's Mark).

Toss an occasional HoT on the kiters, but the main goal should be as little healing, and therefore as little healing aggro as possible, with the priests fading every opportunity.

Ours have this annoying talent for running through trains and getting cleaved to death :(

1) We have warlocks/druids fear/sleep as many dragons as they can, huntes kite the rest.
2) We have mages pick up the legionaires with fire blast, and the mages kite.
3) 5 Shamans simply stay in the middle and are solely responsible for making sure their earthbind totems stay down.
4) Everyone else is split up into DPS groups to take the mages down.

We found mages make the most efficient kiters because mages are the one class that can easily get out of being dazed -- via blink. In reality, ANY class can kite, if you're had enough practice at it. All you have to do is pick one strat, and just stick with it.

You may want to give a full on Kill all the Orc spawns a shot... Will help with Nefarion later on if you can do it.

Druids -> Hunters -> Warlocks get the Dragons

Yeah, thanks to me being the strats person, our guild uses a kiting system where the warriors kite the dragons and the druids kite the legionairres. It is extremely simple to gather up a huge group using moonfire, it also has the added advantages of sprint, feral charge ( to get away in a pinch) rejuv on the run, ns heal on the run, and bear form if they get too close. If you can get everything kited perfectly, there becomes a point where the room's spawns cap and no more mages come out, and with proper kiting, you could virtually take all day doing it. Using the ledges to gain space on the mobs is the key. they have to run down the sides of the ramp to follow you after you jump thru the middle, this allows ANY class the ability to kite. Do a figure 8 pattern and you're set.

The reasoning behind the druid kite on the legionaries is the ways to get yourself out of a jam, and also, if you were in the middle of the room healing, you're going to pull aggro far before the priests who can fade, and the paladins with their inherent aggro bonus on heals.

4-5 Shamans Kiting Legionnaires in middle
Mages/Rogues/Warriors killing Mages as they come
No/minimal healing done by healers, bandage if you need to be healed
Dragonkin slept/kited/feared by druids/hunters/warlocks

Shamans NS heal themselves if needed, pulling loose legionnares to them with frost shock.