Background: I'm an officer in an alliance guild that has MC/Onyxia on farm status. We've had 12 Ragnaros take-downs and 4 Razorgore take-downs. At this point we can take down Razorgore every single week. Vael has been attempted 3 weeks in a row now, with 7% being the best attempt. We employ a DKP system - points are handed out based on bosskills and on-time/end. Bidding is, generally stated, "if you can use it, you can bid on it". For an example of our general DPS level, without flasks we can consistently get Rags below 30% before the sons spawn...typical is 23-28%.

So that's where we are. Hopefully that gives you the right perspective in order to answer the questions I'm about to ask. Please keep in mind that I'm focused on getting answers that will help me .A. limit drama and .B. be the best choice for increasing our guild's overall chances of progression.

1. What's the low-down on Brutality Blade/Perdition's Blade/CHT/Vis'khag...and hunters/rogues? Should rogues get first priority? Or ultimately "who cares"...let the hunters stack up on whatever they like, while new rogues in the guild "wait in line"?

2. More generally - how important is it to limit certain drops to "first dibs" based on class? For example, priests can't bid on SoD unless every last mage/warlock/druid that wants it has it...Dark Iron Ring to warriors before feral druids...etc?

3. Vael fight: for a guild at the point we're at - how important is it to put Blessing of Salvation on tanks to make the transitions more smooth? I'm assuming if you know what I'm talking about I don't have to explain how that works...I'd just like to know if it really is a good strat or not. I've heard a lot of good things about it but am having trouble generating traction for it.

4. Druids in BWL - again, at our point of progression - let 'em choose their spec or ask for restoration for now?

5. Now that we're at the point where we have more cores than we know what to do with...is it time to start offering a limited number of them out to guildies? For DKP? For random rolls? How is this normally handled?

6. Healing on Vael - we're going with 5 druids on current tank target, 2 priests in tank groups PoHing, pallies spot healing...and for DPS groups priests/pallies. Good/bad?

7. How important is it to swap dead folks out of groups during the Vael fight so that priest group healing remains effective?

Ok I think that's all for now...any constructive help will be much appreciated.

If you can get rag below 30% before sons you should be able to kill vael :(. Maybe it is a healing issue, but from what you described it sounds ok. I know we do have someone switch people around for healing when certain people die.

Firstly, any hunter wanting to loot a Perds or Vis'kag should be gkicked for being a collosal moron.

More generally, either solution has potential for massive drama. If you implement priority, people will bitch up a storm about the loot that's prioritised to other classes. If you don't, people will bitch up a storm about loot being "wasted" on classes that will never use the item in question in a raid instance (or will just make less use of it than they think they would).

Cleave is an issue...to be honest I'd be more than happy with just a pally in each tank group healing the tanks...but it doesn't seem to be enough and the druids have their hands full keeping the current tank target up. I think a big problem these days is that we're attempting Vael with 3-4 priests, 5 pallies and 5 druids.

Learning the fight with low healing is tough. Ideally groups 3-8 would be DPS and we'd have a priest PoHing in each. Put 4-5 druids on current tank target, 1 pally in each tank group (groups 1-2) and the rest of the pallies spot healing DPS groups.

1. Hunters wanting vis'kag or perd have a problem and you might want to seriously consider their position in the raid if they take it over a rogue wanting it.

Personally im all for restricting loot however I am in a guild where loot is handled pretty much as you describe.

3. The importance of blessing of salvation depends on how far apart your tanks are in threat generation.
You always want to start out with your worst tank as he doesnt have to fight for aggro if he starts and then probably go with your best, second best etc threat generator.

Now say your second and third tank are very close to each other in threat generation its a good move to put salvation on the third tank (that he removes a bit into the battle) in order to solidify the tank transition.

6. One priest should be able to cover one group and you dont need 2 priests in any single group.
Try and cover as many dps/tankgroups with your priests as possible as dps casters are fairly useless on vael.

7. It helps but isnt necessary but as you havent beaten him yet i see no reason not to do it.

*edit*
Cleave should never be a problem. If your getting cleaves on the melee then they are either standing to close to vaels head or the tank is standing to close to vael.
Make sure the tank always stands a good distance from the boss as you can hit him from quite far away and doing so will remove all cleaving.

Zeln - good comments, thanks!

Yes, we've distributed cores to build up FR gear. Casters in the guild are up to 100+ FR. Melee 150+. Tanks 250+ with the top 3 at the magical 315 (that IS the max right??)...

For Vael we've told the guild "max FR" while we learn. I believe for rogues that means they are working with 150+...ish.

Ok, I get the point with Perditions and Vis'kag. How about CHT? That seems to be the hot button, especially as we have newer rogues entering the guild and needing to get geared up and they end up bumping up against hunters with tons of DKP looking for an upgrade.

Concerning loot priority: it really depends on how reasonable foks in your raid are. As kharen said, hunters looting perdi or vis won't push the raid forward, rather the contrary if they drop their boneslicing hatchet or whatever for this one. Talk to your raid about this topic without excerting any pressure, it might just work. If you have just a bunch of loothog though, you might not get around introducing said loot priority. However my experience is that priority systems don't solve the problems on the long run because the problem is the mindset of your co raiders.

have your hunters take dooms edge, cht, fang of the faceless instead. CTS is to good to be wasted on a hunter

I have to be honest, we've never had a set order for Vael. From our very first kill until today, we just have all the offtanks stand in the same spot, away from the cleaves. Each gets a healer dedicated just to them, and whenever the MT dies, and he swings round, whoever has aggro runs to the MT spot.

The tank transitions seem more about your tanks being awake and fast to move more than anything else. I personally just wouldn;t put BoS on any tanks at all, have them all fight for aggro, and just move like mad when they get it after the MT dies...

Brissa - thanks for the point about cleave. We've solved the "cleave jumping to melee" problem by putting tanks on the opposite side from rogues, but cleave HAS been jumping to tanks from the current target.

I'll throw the tanks the point about having the current target tank stay well back (can they go as far back as on the stairs??).

Salvation is worth it if you have problems having consistency in your tank transitions (by putting it on the tank who does to much threat) otherwise its not.

If you stand parallel to the after legs of vael no cleave will hit you if you haven't anybody standing farther forward who builds a cleave bridge.

Zeln - well, we've been on Vael for 3 weeks, probably about 15 attempts so far. Your point is taken, however.

Brissa - great, I'll definitely point this out!

Let Druids spec whatever they want to, as long as they do a decent job.

If everyone has great FR, give extra cores to guildes as /random or something.

I wouldn't bother swapping out dead folks for PoH healing.

I believe in letting druids choose their own spec and that there's always room for variety. For where you're at though, I'd personally expect most of them to be at least 31 restoration. If that doesn't turn out to be the case, and all of them go balance or feral (even skipping talents like imp. mark) then just go out and recruit some new druids for raiding.

Sure.

A druid can be fickle about his or her spec-o'-the-day and will change often depending on mood and the guild's needs (if the EJ druids are any indication). As long all healers are pulling their own weight, you guys should be fine.

Well, Moonkin are never optimal, but yes, that sounds like a good setup... :)

We've found ourselves using feral druids as tanks in more and more places - it started with Nefarian Phase 1, and now we use them on Skeram, Sartura and trash mobs as well. Having a feral druid or two around is very handy.

Naturally, *all* our druids heal on most fights, no matter their spec. Healing is a hugely integral part of their class...

Sorry, moonkin is never A-OK.

24/27 efficiency balance/resto is a very well-rounded raiding build. Moonkin is just silly. One true feral druid is fine.

When it comes to "forcing" specs, I agree with the way you phrased it in your first post -- it's really more a matter of asking them to go resto. For now. "For now" being the key. People should understand that learning content faster is in everyone's best interests -- it's good for morale, and it gets loot flowing into your hands faster. When you're learning a fight and every bit matters, then yes, having 2-3 resto-specced healers versus non-resto-specced healers genuinely could mean the difference between a low-% wipe and a kill. Same with having a tank who has at least 16 points in Prot versus having a Fury/Arms warrior tanking. Are you forcing them to play that way in perpetuity? Hell no. Once the place is on farm status you have a lot more room to play around. But when it comes down to it, everyone likes purples, and no one likes wiping to the same boss week after week. Explaining to people that they'd really be more useful if they dropped their spec for the time being should work. (Also note that I'm not talking about mandating cookie-cutter specs across the board or anything like that. I'm talking about stuff like pure shadow priests, moonkin druids, full BM hunters, etc.)

Yep. Honestly, our feral/moonkin are both great healers so it's not a big deal.

Utility class 4tw.

Edit: posted before Gurgthock...but published after his post appeared...great advice Gurg...much appreciated. I guess ultimately it sounds like the only real tweak needed would be our moonkin perhaps moving to a more balance/resto spec.

I've never entirely understood this argument. They may be great healers, but it's undeniable that they'd be better healers if they had more mana regen, cheaper heals, larger heals, larger HoTs, and so forth. If a feral/moonkin druid is performing on par with your resto druids, then that's an indication of a skill/attention disparity between the two groups, not an indication that spec doesn't matter. If those guys specced 11/40 feral/resto or some variant thereupon, they'd probably wipe the floor with your other resto druids if they're already equalling them without the spec.

Edit:
Again, "needed" is a strong word. Will you beat Vael and beyond with a moonkin? Sure, eventually. Would it really help to not have a moonkin spec on your raids? Yes. Up to you, and up to him, which route you prefer.

Hate to bring this up again, but it's a thread that got sorta lost. Regarding Core Hound Tooth - my research suggests that hunters with us at our point of progression would be best equipped with CHT/Rhokdelar. Is this the case or am I nutzo?