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Old 06/12/06, 10:42 AM   #16
Ashuko
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Murloc Druid
 
Windrunner
Zeln - well, we've been on Vael for 3 weeks, probably about 15 attempts so far. Your point is taken, however.

Brissa - great, I'll definitely point this out!

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Old 06/12/06, 10:48 AM   #17
 frmorrison
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Originally Posted by Ashuko
4. Druids in BWL - again, at our point of progression - let 'em choose their spec or ask for restoration for now?

5. Now that we're at the point where we have more cores than we know what to do with...is it time to start offering a limited number of them out to guildies? For DKP? For random rolls? How is this normally handled?

7. How important is it to swap dead folks out of groups during the Vael fight so that priest group healing remains effective?
Let Druids spec whatever they want to, as long as they do a decent job.

If everyone has great FR, give extra cores to guildes as /random or something.

I wouldn't bother swapping out dead folks for PoH healing.

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Old 06/12/06, 10:51 AM   #18
Kaubel
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I believe in letting druids choose their own spec and that there's always room for variety. For where you're at though, I'd personally expect most of them to be at least 31 restoration. If that doesn't turn out to be the case, and all of them go balance or feral (even skipping talents like imp. mark) then just go out and recruit some new druids for raiding.

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Old 06/12/06, 10:55 AM   #19
Ashuko
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Kaubel - that was my feeling as well. Right now out of 4-5 steady raiding druids, one is feral and one is moonkin. Both heal on Vael.

I'm tempted to say that's A-OK?

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Old 06/12/06, 11:00 AM   #20
Kaubel
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Sure.

A druid can be fickle about his or her spec-o'-the-day and will change often depending on mood and the guild's needs (if the EJ druids are any indication). As long all healers are pulling their own weight, you guys should be fine.

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Old 06/12/06, 11:00 AM   #21
Maledict
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Well, Moonkin are never optimal, but yes, that sounds like a good setup... :)

We've found ourselves using feral druids as tanks in more and more places - it started with Nefarian Phase 1, and now we use them on Skeram, Sartura and trash mobs as well. Having a feral druid or two around is very handy.

Naturally, *all* our druids heal on most fights, no matter their spec. Healing is a hugely integral part of their class...

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Old 06/12/06, 11:03 AM   #22
♦ Praetorian
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Sorry, moonkin is never A-OK.

24/27 efficiency balance/resto is a very well-rounded raiding build. Moonkin is just silly. One true feral druid is fine.

When it comes to "forcing" specs, I agree with the way you phrased it in your first post -- it's really more a matter of asking them to go resto. For now. "For now" being the key. People should understand that learning content faster is in everyone's best interests -- it's good for morale, and it gets loot flowing into your hands faster. When you're learning a fight and every bit matters, then yes, having 2-3 resto-specced healers versus non-resto-specced healers genuinely could mean the difference between a low-% wipe and a kill. Same with having a tank who has at least 16 points in Prot versus having a Fury/Arms warrior tanking. Are you forcing them to play that way in perpetuity? Hell no. Once the place is on farm status you have a lot more room to play around. But when it comes down to it, everyone likes purples, and no one likes wiping to the same boss week after week. Explaining to people that they'd really be more useful if they dropped their spec for the time being should work. (Also note that I'm not talking about mandating cookie-cutter specs across the board or anything like that. I'm talking about stuff like pure shadow priests, moonkin druids, full BM hunters, etc.)

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Old 06/12/06, 11:03 AM   #23
Ashuko
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Yep. Honestly, our feral/moonkin are both great healers so it's not a big deal.

Utility class 4tw.

Edit: posted before Gurgthock...but published after his post appeared...great advice Gurg...much appreciated. I guess ultimately it sounds like the only real tweak needed would be our moonkin perhaps moving to a more balance/resto spec.

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Old 06/12/06, 11:07 AM   #24
♦ Praetorian
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Originally Posted by Ashuko
Yep. Honestly, our feral/moonkin are both great healers so it's not a big deal.

Utility class 4tw.
I've never entirely understood this argument. They may be great healers, but it's undeniable that they'd be better healers if they had more mana regen, cheaper heals, larger heals, larger HoTs, and so forth. If a feral/moonkin druid is performing on par with your resto druids, then that's an indication of a skill/attention disparity between the two groups, not an indication that spec doesn't matter. If those guys specced 11/40 feral/resto or some variant thereupon, they'd probably wipe the floor with your other resto druids if they're already equalling them without the spec.

Edit:
Edit: posted before Gurgthock...but published after his post appeared...great advice Gurg...much appreciated. I guess ultimately it sounds like the only real tweak needed would be our moonkin perhaps moving to a more balance/resto spec.
Again, "needed" is a strong word. Will you beat Vael and beyond with a moonkin? Sure, eventually. Would it really help to not have a moonkin spec on your raids? Yes. Up to you, and up to him, which route you prefer.

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Old 06/12/06, 11:08 AM   #25
Ashuko
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Hate to bring this up again, but it's a thread that got sorta lost. Regarding Core Hound Tooth - my research suggests that hunters with us at our point of progression would be best equipped with CHT/Rhokdelar. Is this the case or am I nutzo?

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Old 06/12/06, 11:10 AM   #26
Jerrax
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Originally Posted by Ashuko
3. Vael fight: for a guild at the point we're at - how important is it to put Blessing of Salvation on tanks to make the transitions more smooth? I'm assuming if you know what I'm talking about I don't have to explain how that works...I'd just like to know if it really is a good strat or not. I've heard a lot of good things about it but am having trouble generating traction for it.

4. Druids in BWL - again, at our point of progression - let 'em choose their spec or ask for restoration for now?

6. Healing on Vael - we're going with 5 druids on current tank target, 2 priests in tank groups PoHing, pallies spot healing...and for DPS groups priests/pallies. Good/bad?

7. How important is it to swap dead folks out of groups during the Vael fight so that priest group healing remains effective?
3. Blessing of Salvation in a tanking order is nice if your warriors get it down but really consider the fact that you may be adding one more variable to your strategy that isn't required. There are a few ways to do tank transitions, if you are having Vael spin on warriors that are "out of sequence" consider tweaking your strategy. You could try using a staggered entry strat (if you have sufficient dps in the raid this works, however you need to dedicate the first 15 seconds or so to sending tanks in one at a time before an open fire) or try the "tanks on the far side" strat where after your MT has solid aggro send all your tanks in on the far side of vael (position raid accordingly to heal them PoH style) and make sure your warriors know when the current MT burns get ready to become the new MT. Whoever takes agg moves into the MT position in 2 seconds, tanks till he burns, next tank, repeat...

4. Depends on the player, if a feral druid can throw on his healing gear and keep up with the other restoration builds so be it. If an individual is clearly behind in heals within BWL and a respec would help they should be choosing to respec themselves for the good of the raid.

6.
Priests PoH constantly, and renew, shield, flash etc while PoH is on cool
Pallies Fulltime on current MT
Druids spot heal, hit HoTs, and watch tank transitions

Spread out paladins for FR aura (tank groups first priority), make sure your MT groups and Melee groups have priests

7. Don't worry about changing people on the fly especially when learning Vael, that fight is always tense for a first kill... One of the keys to the fight is having your healers adapt and cover when others explode. Ie, PriestA in tank group one goes down make sure the raid is aware of it and the druids\priests cover the warriors waiting in line with HoTs. Call it out "Group 6 priest is down, Cover them" Burning adrenaline can be merciless on occasion, your raid needs to know how to adapt and prioritize their healing if several healer catch BA.

It seems that your raid has the dps needed to take out Vael (proven through Rag) and the organization (proven through Razorgore) what you really need to focus on now is small tweaks to your strategy (positioning, group design, and handling transitions) and you'll get him down. Raids new to Vael don't normally wipe on lack of DPS its usually an agg steal, bridged cleave, someone not moving fast enough with BA, insufficient healing/fire resistance etc...

I'll say this though, we wiped on Vael for some time knowing we had the DPS to kill him easily. We spent some time reviewing his abilities and ours then adjusted our positioning accordingly and he was dead the next day.

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Old 06/12/06, 11:12 AM   #27
Maledict
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It is the case - but again, it has to be said - hunters upgrading from the easily craftable Dawn's Edge gain +20 attack power and +9 stamina when they get a corehound tooth. Whilst a nice upgrade, it clearly isn't anything like what a rogue is getting form the same item.

We don't have class looting in our guild, as we're pretty casual, but what we do on stuff like this is to ask the class in question to pass on the first few that drop, so that the raid force can benefit as a whole from it.

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Old 06/12/06, 11:13 AM   #28
♦ Praetorian
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Originally Posted by Ashuko
Hate to bring this up again, but it's a thread that got sorta lost. Regarding Core Hound Tooth - my research suggests that hunters with us at our point of progression would be best equipped with CHT/Rhokdelar. Is this the case or am I nutzo?
At your point of progression your hunters should have their epic bow and be using a Dal'Rend's set. CHT+Brutality (if you have both) are an upgrade, but at your point in progression your rogues need those weapons more than your hunters.

Ultimately, your hunters will want two 1h +crit/+AP weapons for max ranged DPS.

CHT, Fang of the Faceless, Hakkar's mainhand, BB, the Silithid Claw (down the line from AQ40 Sartura) , and Doom's Edge (sort of) are the viable candidates for those slots. Until you can get two of the above in some combination, Dal'Rend's set is better. Zin'rokh from Hakkar with a 25agi enchant also provides a good substitute for now.

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Old 06/12/06, 11:18 AM   #29
KalelScilla
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The absurd rarity of Dal'Rends and the fact that every rogue and warrior crucifies you for rolling on them puts a dent in that argument though Gurg. Most hunters with blue weapons go for bone slicing hatchets because at least rogues can't use it and it's too fast to make a good warrior weapon.

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Old 06/12/06, 11:26 AM   #30
Kaubel
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Originally Posted by Praetorian
At your point of progression your hunters should have their epic bow and be using a Dal'Rend's set. CHT+Brutality (if you have both) are an upgrade, but at your point in progression your rogues need those weapons more than your hunters.
Poor Hau.

Originally Posted by Lyta View Post
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.

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