And what are forced looting and class priority other then specific restrictions that prevent bad stuff from happening? But whatever, I'm over it. Well we could try to have a discussion about what works and why it works in bid based systems, but it seems like too many people here have either been burned by poorly thought out systems or dickhole guildies for that to happen.

For those in a bid based nonzero system or are considering it, it can work without a bunch of drama and friction. Don't believe the hype, consider the nature of your guild and what your goals are, and pick the best system for you.

You don't get the point, the system EJ / other guilds using zero sum are working for is one where it completely removes any chance at a person's greed messing it up. I don't mean to say Ej or these other guilds don't trust they're members (probably the exact opposite). Merely all I am saying is they just wish to remove that chance within the system.

Build a system that cannot be cheated/colluded/ is fair and you have a good system.

Build a system based on trusting people and you're bound to fail whether it be now or in the future.

There is always someone who will try to gain an advantage in everything, this system removes that option while still being fair to everyone.

(at least thats my opinion of the system :))
Of course, I could be way off course if which case someone from EJ/other zero sum dkp guilds [Hamlet from Sigil?] can tell me where I went wrong.

The argument isn't that it will or won't cause drama.

The argument is that a fixed-priced system if all about even distribution of loot. At its simplest think of it as a round-robin method with some extra features built in to reflect how often people raid.

An Open Bidding system isn't about even distribution of loot. It is about rewarding individual efforts.

They are two very different sets of goals. That doesn't mean bid-based systems always lead to conflict - they may not. But they certainly aren't optimized for progression.

To me the difference between a bidding system and a fixed price system, is the difference between you determining what is even to you and your fellow guildies and someone else doing it for you. So I guess I disagree with you on your observation.

Eh? With fixed prices, it means that Mage A and Mage B, assuming they both raid with the same frequency and loot the same items, will always have equal priorities when it comes to looting. In a bidding system, Player A could theoretically pay half of what Player B paid for the same item. So both raid the same, both have the same gear, yet Player A now has dibs over Player B. Then on top of that, you have open systems that allow hunters to bid asstons of points on some +hit trinket that's clearly better for rogues, and your only defense to keep that from happening is, "That would never happen due to the nature of our guild." Whadafug? That's not fair regardless of what each person feels something is worth. It's individualistic, self-serving bullshit that hinders the raid group's progress and overall morale.

So there IS no disagreeing with Oaken's observation. There IS no hype. He's spot on.

Why in the crap am I even going on about this? It's been explained a thousand times how zero-sum works and I'm adding nothing new to the discussion.

No, you've just agreed with me but you won't acknowledge it.

A single, universal definition of what items are worth means the system is about evenly distributing loot based on its relative value to the raid (not its value to me, its value to the raid). If I disagree with how it is valued to the raid, well, too bad.

Open bidding is the ability to set and pay a price based on what an item is worth to me = the system is all about me and my ability to choose how I'm rewarded.

Maybe give option for people not in the run to pay points to those in the run if they want it but dont really want to show up?

Treat it as a 40 man PvE progression drop but provide the reward to the 20 man group who got it. Only works if you use points and people value points more than gold though. Random pugs or alts and casual guild members might not like it either.

Perhaps you could extend need to alts of people in the raid extending the attraction for people coming to gear / have fun on their alt while picking up some progression items for their mains.

My personal view on AQ20 books is that they're a lot more valuable being used in your raid than they are being liquidated, even if it means handing them to some "leeches." So, pretty much everyone "deserves" a book, and the question is just one of priority. (Assuming that the "leeches" are coming to raids other than AQ20 and helping your guild out in other ways. If they're not, and you're unwilling to /gkick them, I hope your guild has a policy that allows different loot treatment for non-contributing members.)

The way we distribute books, it's rolled on by everyone present who needs it first. If it's not needed, it goes to the guild bank. From there, it's distributed in order of seniority (lifetime earned DKP). It could be any other order you want to pick, but having some sort of merit-based decision seems approriate to me.

Anyway, if you'd really rather liquidate those books than see them in the hands of guildies, or if you have guildies whose participation is so slack that money in the pockets of your regular raiders is more beneficial than improved performance from the non-raider, then carrying on with your plan seems wise.

The items still get distributed and people have the freedom of putting a value on items as they see fit, I agree that loot will not be evenly distributed in the short run but in the long run it will even out. My point is that Oaken's argument seems to say that 1 epic = 1 epic, regardless of what epic it is or what people think it's worth. I like that people can determine for themselves that epic A = 2 x epic B and spend their dkp accordingly.

Just as well as that can happen in open bidding systems, it can also happen in fixed price systems in the short run but it too will balance out in the long run.

Open bidding systems do have that problem that you point out, true, but fixed priced systems also have a problem. That problem is that at some point you will get forced to take, for example, Bloodfang Shoulders even though you don't want them and the consequence of getting forced to take that piece of equipment even though you don't think it's worth it is that you will now loose (to you) an unfair amount of DKP. Where it gets really sticky is when you get bumped down in the loot order and you can no longer get one of the things you were really waiting for. This is drama value though, which to Oaken was not part of the argument though.

You promote a hive mentality and I'd be the first to agree that this system I am talking about is not exactly that, quite the opposite. However I don't think it hinders raid progression, in the long run fixed price and open bidding systems play out to just about the same. My experience with it so far is that with 2 players having 3,000 DKP each, Player A might buy drop X for 2,000 DKP and a little later Player B will get it for 1,000 DKP - when drop Y comes along Player B will buy it for 2,000 DKP and Player A will buy it a bit later for 1,000 DKP.

We've had it happen with dps warrior A saving most of his DKP for that big weapon that never dropped, while dps warrior B scooped up all the nice non-weapon upgrades at low prices because dps warrior A was afraid to loose his edge. This put him in the lead in terms of overall character power, but again, both people always turned up for raids and no raid progression was ever lost. All the items were still present and contributed to bringing down the bosses. By now dps warrior A has caught up with dps warrior B just fine.

So while it will be a self-serving system it works out fine in the long run, despite when freak drop streaks or lack there of happens - this idea can be quite faulty as I've seen a few times with our draught of 4.5 months without any netherwind bracers that just recently ended. I just think people are exaggerating how this system is for self-centered and egotistical players and the discrepancies that will happen in terms of overall character power is not that big an issue.

Open bidding systems are about distributing items evenly according to my perceived value of items, so if that's what you're saying and since you persist I agree with you then it must be so - then I guess we do agree :)

Curious to what you mean by this last setence.

I already allow alts in the raid (indeed we almost need them on moam), alts can roll on books for their main, and alts can pick up just about any blue item they want from the clear. The only items restricted to mains first are the 3 Ossirian epics, and even then his crappier items go to alts anyway. Alts can also pick up rotting books, though something like Frostbolt will likely be banked for a main not currently in the raid.

If you're suggesting that alts should be allowed to roll on books with equal priority for their alt vs people's mains though, that doesn't seem fair or promoting progression.

The idea of using 40 man dkp though, and charging a minimal price, is certainly worthy of considering though.

Either way you decide you will end up stepping on someones toes, what enshula suggested sounds good though.

Our solution is that if a book drops in the raid, it goes to a main over an alt. If an alt is present in the raid and no mains in the raid need, the alt can take the book for himself. Alts can also buy books for their mains, this gives an incentive for people to come because mains mostly do not need anything from AQ20 so you can gear your twink as well as get books for your main at the same time. Mains can also buy books for their alts, we do not have any strict rules for it but if one of the rare books drop we sneak them around that rule and distribute them to a main not in the raid. This is fortunately a common understanding, so there's no drama about it. We've had bad luck with feint for example, we tend to give those to mains over alts even though an alt is present in the raid that wants it.

The reasoning for seemingly putting alternates over mains is that we have had some problem filling out AQ20 raids, so we're putting more incentive for people to come so we can actually get some books and then distribute whatever slips through to mains in the guild. Something is better than nothing, that was really how we approached it. This might be unique to our guild of course and of no use to you.

For AQ20 books we keep it simple... only people in the raid can roll, for that particualr character. If everyone has it, it gets banked, and the class officers decide who gets the book. I would always chose to gear our core raiders over alts. Once all the core raiders have it, then it goes to alts, or we might casually see if we can trade for another book that we could use. Depending on your RNG, certain books might be hard to come by.

I meant for someone to come and gear up an alt in blues/purples while picking up books for their main. As you already do.

However if you need to you can also allow alts to have priority over alts rolling for mains and mains not in the raid. The reason you would want to do that is alts typically want to raid AQ20 for fun and to pick up some items outside a guilds normal loot system. While mains tend to go until they have the three books for their class alts may end up going a lot longer to pick up various 5% drop type items. I wouldnt be surprised if you could wind up with more books by getting the alts as a nice solid core that will go twice a week for ages. The raid mains may end up getting the 4th or 5th drops instead of the 1st or 2nd but perhaps more instances are being run and everyone will get it soon enough anyway if the runs keep going.

I would lean towards making sure your AQ20 is nice and happy so it keeps going back than funneling all boe's to mains by veterency or lifetime points earned first to aid in 40 man progression as that way you should get both. At the same time i dont really like the idea of selling books that mains could use but if its a choice between doing that and not running AQ20 at all you might as well. At least give an option for your guildmates to buy it at a reduced price before AHing it though.