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Old 09/17/09, 12:20 PM   #301
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by keseph View Post
I've heard reports last night that damage dealt to the unshielded twin counts toward breaking the shield. Didn't have much chance to test it before getting past them this week but it seemed to hold true for the one shield that went up in 10h. That would explain the absorb totals fluctuating and also being way below official numbers. It would also mean it's a substantial dps loss to switch to the shielded target. Anyone else heard or seen this?
This seems highly unlikely simply based on game mechanics.

Shield of Darkness specifically states it is an aura which absorbs Arcane, Fire, Frost, Holy, Nature, Physical, Shadow. As the other twin does not have the aura, it would not be absorbing the damage. Shield of Lights is the same.

If you are not hitting the unit which has the aura, you are not ablating the shield.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 09/17/09, 1:13 PM   #302
suffer
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Eredar
Last night during a 10 man Heroic Faction Champs fight, I (a fury warr at the time) got instagibbed by the rogue.

He dropped me by 30k health in less than 0.4 seconds. He used fan of knives + blade furry.

The link to the log is here: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis then click on "DEATHS" then "More."

It this just unlucky, or is this bugged? I just can't get over how one NPC could intsagib me in less than 1/2 a second.

Thanks.

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Old 09/17/09, 1:39 PM   #303
LiteSabre
Chef
 
Ramsay
Orc Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by suffer View Post
Last night during a 10 man Heroic Faction Champs fight, I (a fury warr at the time) got instagibbed by the rogue.

He dropped me by 30k health in less than 0.4 seconds. He used fan of knives + blade furry.

The link to the log is here: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis then click on "DEATHS" then "More."

It this just unlucky, or is this bugged? I just can't get over how one NPC could intsagib me in less than 1/2 a second.

Thanks.
Blade flurry procs once per main hand hit of fan (edit: mechanics may be different for the npc rogue, but afaik this is how it works for pc rogues). If you were, by some freak chance, the only person in flurry range while 17 people were in fan range, then every hit of bf would be focused on you.

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Old 09/17/09, 1:52 PM   #304
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
Tinwhisker's Avatar
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by LiteSabre View Post
Blade flurry procs once per main hand hit of fan (edit: mechanics may be different for the npc rogue, but afaik this is how it works for pc rogues). If you were, by some freak chance, the only person in flurry range while 17 people were in fan range, then every hit of bf would be focused on you.
The NPC rogue did have Blade Flurry up during that time. Specifically, the rogues FoK hit you, Chatown, Lefeinish, 7 Venimous Snakes, 7 Vipers and 2 treants and since you were the only thing left alive in melee range you got all of the Blade Flurry procs.

It would appear that you got gib'd by what PvE raid rogues have been using to gib trash. I'd suggest you stay away from the hunters using snake traps in the future as it seems to be one hell of a liability when the rogue is around.

Last edited by Tinwhisker : 09/17/09 at 2:04 PM.


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Old 09/17/09, 2:33 PM   #305
keseph
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
This seems highly unlikely simply based on game mechanics.

Shield of Darkness specifically states it is an aura which absorbs Arcane, Fire, Frost, Holy, Nature, Physical, Shadow. As the other twin does not have the aura, it would not be absorbing the damage. Shield of Lights is the same.

If you are not hitting the unit which has the aura, you are not ablating the shield.
Common sense would suggest that, however not all game mechanics fit common sense. Moreover, it may be a side effect of their shared health and there are only a handful of examples of that mechanic in the game so it isn't terribly well-studied, let alone the many inconsistencies that have plagued absorb mechanics in the past.

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Old 09/17/09, 4:28 PM   #306
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by keseph View Post
Common sense would suggest that, however not all game mechanics fit common sense. Moreover, it may be a side effect of their shared health and there are only a handful of examples of that mechanic in the game so it isn't terribly well-studied, let alone the many inconsistencies that have plagued absorb mechanics in the past.
Actually, the shared health could indeed account for fluctuations in shield strength.

If Lightbane has 1000 hp and Darkbane has 1100 hp, whenever the normalization occurs, they should both re-balance to 1050hp. You saw this all the time on Illidari Council where one NPC's health would jump back up (smaller than an uninterrupted heal) when it rebalanced health across the group.

So if Lightbane get a shield, it is taking no damage (the shield is).
DPS on Darkbane is directly impacting.
When it normalizes between, it "inflicts" half the damage to Lightbane, which instead ablates a portion of the shield, and "heals" Darkbane half the damage.

Therefore 1/2 of any damage inflicted to the un-shielded twin should logically reduce the shield.

The light/dark buffs appear to increase damage by 50% (I compared some World of Log fights of Twins vs the same people fighting other Coliseum bosses). How much does it reduce vs same colour?

50% of 150% = 75% normal damage would inflict against the shield if you remained on your unshielded target. If attacking same colour reduces by more than 25%, it is superior to stay on target unless you also swap buff.

This is theoretical and would require testing to prove.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 09/17/09, 5:39 PM   #307
keseph
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
So if Lightbane get a shield, it is taking no damage (the shield is).
DPS on Darkbane is directly impacting.
When it normalizes between, it "inflicts" half the damage to Lightbane, which instead ablates a portion of the shield, and "heals" Darkbane half the damage.

Therefore 1/2 of any damage inflicted to the un-shielded twin should logically reduce the shield.
In this scenario, either Lightbane's health drops and ablates the shield at the same time (net 50% dmg boost) or her health stays the same, but that leaves an hp difference which would need to be normalized again (and again, etc) effectively double the damage dealt to her -- in other words, another 50% damage boost.

On the other hand, it could operate differently (replicate damage dealt to one twin to the other twin). I say this because even with the damage buffs I don't quite buy that our 25 raid dealt over 56million damage in just over 300 seconds (almost 200k dps or 8k dps person, including healers).

In either case, 50% of your total dps is being sent to other twin, and if that damage ablates the shield in any way it's guaranteed to be a net gain of 50% to attack the unshielded target, and possibly a 50% dps loss to attack the shielded one (absorbed damage not being replicated).

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Old 09/17/09, 6:31 PM   #308
Valerian
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
This shield issue should be fairly trivial to test. Let a shield come out, blow all dps on the unshielded target and see if the shield ever goes down. If it is in fact a damage increase there should be no real issue of destroying the shield. I guess we can give it a shot tonight.

I do kinda doubt it since it doesn't take an unreasonable amount of damage to destroy the shield without switching colors so if this method DOES work it will certainly trivialize that aspect of the fight.

Update:

We did 10 man normal ToC and it certainly seemed like we could dps the OTHER target and the shield still died. We tried this on 25 man heroic and could not replicate it.

Now on heroic it was a dark shield which we generally had trouble burning down. However, if the theory that you could dps the OTHER twin to take out the shield was true, the dark shield should have been JUST as easy as the light shield to kill using the "stay on the twin opposite your color" strategy.

Since we only did it once on 10 man (since we killed them) its possible that incidental AoE or people actually targetting the shield are what took it down. Another conclusion could be that it depends on WHEN their health tries to get normalized meaning it wont be consistent. A final thought is that it only works on 10 man and not 25 man but that seems like a very outside chance, at best.

I'm tending to side with the "it doesn't work at all and someone in my 10 man fucked up" explanation though.

Last edited by Valerian : 09/17/09 at 11:26 PM.

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Old 09/18/09, 2:23 AM   #309
rldolph79
Von Kaiser
 
rldolph79's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Alexstrasza
Does anyone know if Improved Kick actually silences for 2s in 25 heroic faction champions?

Our rogues are throwing spec, but still seem to be having trouble locking down the healers... That 2s of silence would probably make a huge difference if it actually works. It seems as if that would be one of the mechanics that blizzard decided to make them immune to, though.

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Old 09/18/09, 3:20 AM   #310
KamPa
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Bronzebeard (EU)
You can't break shields by dpsing unshielded Twin in Heroic 25. We completely ignore white shields and keep hitting Darkbane during entire Twins Pact - it never breaks even though we do at least 5% damage during that time, which would be around 2 mlns.(give or take, but I'd say it's a minimum, we easily break dark shields)
It might not be optimal strategy, but it's easier to execute for us - you do lose around 15% on each heal, which is 30% worst case, but it means people only change colors twice during entire fight and barely move, except soakers(and if they wear PvP or even tanking gear, they can afford to make a lot of mistakes). DPS would only be an issue with multiple deaths and double heals(or second light heal being before second dark). Given that it's possible to predict their next skill to an extent, you could blow Hero or change colors just before it happens, removing that one disadvantage.

Edit: Obviously, the damage is not absorbed and both Twins lose hp that way. My logic here is simple - trying to kill shield and failing to do so = 20% heal *and* around 1 mln dmg wasted. Ignoring the shield : 20% healed and 5% dpsed = 15% heal. Same reason why it's pointless trying to break final shield when they are on very low hitpoints. There's still place to improve that, but so far - it works.

Last edited by KamPa : 09/18/09 at 5:50 AM.

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Old 09/18/09, 5:28 AM   #311
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Quick modification to the parses, it seems that when the damage done to both bosses is added up it reaches indeed the 1.3 - 1.4 million mark the shields are supposed to have (i think). Tho the shield only seems to break if at least 800k - 1000k damage have been done to the originally shielded boss. Either we were very bad at switching or my script is bugged, but sometimes we deal 8 million to the unshielded boss and 600k to the shielded one and we fail the interrupt. If someone more skilled in perl then me wants to take a look at the script feel free to pm me

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Old 09/18/09, 6:16 AM   #312
Mideci
Great Tiger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by rldolph79 View Post
Does anyone know if Improved Kick actually silences for 2s in 25 heroic faction champions?

Our rogues are throwing spec, but still seem to be having trouble locking down the healers... That 2s of silence would probably make a huge difference if it actually works. It seems as if that would be one of the mechanics that blizzard decided to make them immune to, though.
Unimproved kick locks out the school from which the healing spell is cast for 5 seconds. Nothing about improved kick can extend that time.

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Old 09/18/09, 6:30 AM   #313
TimWischmeier
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kult der Verdammten (EU)
Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
Unimproved kick locks out the school from which the healing spell is cast for 5 seconds. Nothing about improved kick can extend that time.
Point is, if the silence effect from improved kick is working, you can kick preemptively and just silence. This helps against instant casts, also.

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Old 09/18/09, 9:29 AM   #314
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by rldolph79 View Post
Does anyone know if Improved Kick actually silences for 2s in 25 heroic faction champions?

Our rogues are throwing spec, but still seem to be having trouble locking down the healers... That 2s of silence would probably make a huge difference if it actually works. It seems as if that would be one of the mechanics that blizzard decided to make them immune to, though.
Silence effects suffer diminishing returns. Very rapidly FoK silence will push all the NPCs in range to immunity for 15 seconds - it would become an interrupt, but no longer silence for 3 seconds.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 09/18/09, 2:37 PM   #315
Mideci
Great Tiger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by TimWischmeier View Post
Point is, if the silence effect from improved kick is working, you can kick preemptively and just silence. This helps against instant casts, also.
Well, someone would have to confirm this who still has the talent, which was generally worthless otherwise.

When I >used< to have Improved Kick, I don't recall the silence taking effect unless the kick actually worked to stop a spell. And, regardless, it's still unclear why 2 seconds of pre-emption would exceed 5 seconds of the healing school being locked out even if you can pre-emptively silence.

Someone can confirm either way.

It should be noted that the instants people care about are generally druid HoTs which are easily dispelled and perhaps the priest fear, which is cast rarely due to the long cooldown. I still don't see any scenarios where you want rogues to respec to get this talent.

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