Parry and autoattack

sp00n · 06/14/06, 10:46 AM

I'd like to post this on the official forums, but bein a European user I can't. :|

So, has anyone noticed that if you parry an opponent's attack, your autoattack comes faster than it normally would?
I was wondering why parry costs more itemvalue points on Hyz' formula than dodge does, though they both grant a 100% damage avoidance (couldn't be just because of overpower). I was thinking, maybe it generats rage when you parry or something, then I did some tests.

Well, it seems that you are really attacking faster than you would normally if you parry an attack, see the combatlog below:

This test was done with a 3,5s 2h weapon with a warrior.

5/15 15:00:35.203  You hit Plaguehound for 276.
5/15 15:00:37.015  Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/15 15:00:37.718  You attack. Plaguehound dodges.
5/15 15:00:39.015  Plaguehound hits you for 62.
5/15 15:00:41.250  Plaguehound hits you for 59.
5/15 15:00:41.250  You miss Plaguehound.
2,5 seconds with Parry (0,7s between Parry -> Attack)
3,5 seconds w/o Parry



5/15 15:01:50.953  You hit Plaguehound for 247.
5/15 15:01:51.578  Plaguehound hits you for 61.
5/15 15:01:53.593  Plaguehound hits you for 59.
5/15 15:01:54.562  You miss Plaguehound.
5/15 15:01:55.437  Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/15 15:01:56.625  You hit Plaguehound for 261.
5/15 15:01:57.453  Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/15 15:01:58.703  You hit Plaguehound for 246.
3,6 seconds w/o Parry
1,1 seconds with Parry (1,2s between Parry -> Attack)
2,1 seconds with Parry (1,3s between Parry -> Attack)



5/15 15:02:58.359  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 280.
5/15 15:02:58.750  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/15 15:03:00.578  You crit Frenzied Plaguehound for 543.
5/15 15:03:00.765  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 62.
5/15 15:03:02.671  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You dodge.
5/15 15:03:03.984  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 238.
2,2s Parry
3,4s Normal



5/15 15:03:07.625  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 291.
5/15 15:03:08.656  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/15 15:03:09.625  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 275.
5/15 15:03:10.640  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/15 15:03:11.640  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 302.
2s Parry
2s Parry



5/15 15:03:47.328  You hit Carrion Devourer for 252.
5/15 15:03:48.015  Carrion Devourer attacks. You parry.
5/15 15:03:49.359  You hit Carrion Devourer for 238.
5/15 15:03:50.156  Carrion Devourer attacks. You dodge.
5/15 15:03:52.015  Carrion Devourer hits you for 55.
5/15 15:03:52.984  You hit Carrion Devourer for 273.
2s Parry
3,6s Normal


5/15 15:04:03.531  You hit Carrion Devourer for 305.
5/15 15:04:05.296  Carrion Devourer attacks. You parry.
5/15 15:04:06.046  You hit Carrion Devourer for 287.
5/15 15:04:07.281  Carrion Devourer hits you for 58.
5/15 15:04:09.312  Carrion Devourer hits you for 62.
5/15 15:04:09.468  You hit Carrion Devourer for 304.
2,5s Parry
3,4s Normal

Now another test with a 1,8s 1h weapon and a shield, warrior again.

5/16 11:44:59.578  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 95.
5/16 11:45:00.250  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 50.
5/16 11:45:01.218  You attack. Frenzied Plaguehound parries.
5/16 11:45:01.828  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/16 11:45:02.500  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 102.
5/16 11:45:03.671  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 45.
5/16 11:45:04.234  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 107.
1,7 seconds w/o Parry
1,3 seconds with Parry (0,7 seconds between Parry -> Attack)
1,7 seconds w/o Parry


5/16 11:45:20.546  You crit Frenzied Plaguehound for 194.
5/16 11:45:21.109  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 44.
5/16 11:45:22.312  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 86.
5/16 11:45:23.125  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/16 11:45:23.531  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 104.
5/16 11:45:25.140  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 48.
5/16 11:45:25.453  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 107.
5/16 11:45:27.156  You crit Frenzied Plaguehound for 211.
1,8 seconds w/o Parry
1,2 seconds with Parry (0,4 seconds between Parry -> Attack)
1,9 seconds w/o Parry
1,7 seconds w/o Parry


5/16 11:45:29.015  You attack. Frenzied Plaguehound dodges.
5/16 11:45:29.156  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 51.
5/16 11:45:30.843  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 92.
5/16 11:45:31.156  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/16 11:45:32.015  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 95.
5/16 11:45:33.140  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 43.
5/16 11:45:33.578  You miss Frenzied Plaguehound.
1,8s w/o
1,2s with (0,9s)
1,5s w/o (??)



5/16 11:45:40.890  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 94.
5/16 11:45:41.171  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 42.
5/16 11:45:42.859  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 103.
5/16 11:45:42.859  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 71.
5/16 11:45:44.312  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/16 11:45:44.453  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 97.
5/16 11:45:45.843  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 80.
5/16 11:45:46.250  You miss Frenzied Plaguehound.
2,0s w/o
1,5s with (0,1s)
1,8s w/o


5/16 11:46:16.828  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 109.
5/16 11:46:17.171  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/16 11:46:17.953  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 90.
5/16 11:46:19.218  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 33.
5/16 11:46:19.812  You crit Frenzied Plaguehound for 201.
1,1s with (0,8s)
1,9s w/o


5/16 11:46:32.328  You attack. Frenzied Plaguehound parries.
5/16 11:46:32.718  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You parry.
5/16 11:46:33.375  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 129.
5/16 11:46:34.750  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 31.
5/16 11:46:35.156  You miss Frenzied Plaguehound.
5/16 11:46:36.765  Frenzied Plaguehound hits you for 35.
5/16 11:46:36.968  You miss Frenzied Plaguehound.
5/16 11:46:38.750  Frenzied Plaguehound attacks. You block.
5/16 11:46:38.875  You hit Frenzied Plaguehound for 109.
1,0s with (0,6s)
1,8s w/o
1,8s w/o
1,9s w/o (but a block, yet which does not seem to have any effect on autoattack)

(What we can also see here, the combatlog itself isn't too accurate)

♦ Praetorian · 06/14/06, 10:48 AM

Yes, this has been discussed, and your observations are accurate.

sp00n · 06/14/06, 10:59 AM

Where can I find such discussion?
The search engine in the official forums is ...well... unsatisfactory.

♦ Praetorian · 06/14/06, 11:08 AM

I'm trying to recall where exactly I've seen it or find the thread, but I know that I've definitely seen extensive log parsing and such, similar to what you did. I think it's been a somewhat (though not widely) known fact for a few months now.

Surfacer · 06/14/06, 11:10 AM

Combat log not being accurate has something to do with the latency fluctuation between client & server, and event synching was never WoW's strong part (how many times have you landed hits AFTER you died? how many times have you received heals after you died? how many times have you seen lvl1s teleporting around orgrimmar spamming gold websites? you get the idea;p )

I did some extensive testing too some time ago and my final conclusion was: if you happen to parry your opponent's attack, the remaining timer of your next autoattack (weapon speed MINUS parry timestamp PLUS last autoattack timestamp) is reduced by 50%.

Drauk · 06/14/06, 11:28 AM

I beleive this was on WoW warrior forum, and i even have non-working link to a thread http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...&T=1012966&P=1 and a short summary

Originally Posted by Parry

Its recently come to my attention that Parry is more than meets the eye.

For a long time, I would notice and sometimes comment that I would get "two attacks" on enemies. I was not sword specced and I did not have Hand of Justice, so it was a mystery. I was told it was just lag or a delay in the processing of the attack, or whatever. I never checked into it.

Recently, I said this over vent, and a fellow warrior responded "When you parry an attack, it resets your swing timer." Mystery solved.

EDIT: "resets your swing timer" in this context means it sets your swing timer to zero, resetting the delay until your next attack to nothing. Sorry for ambiguity.
EDIT2: See my post #25 for my evidence, and more following that.

What this means: If you attack at time T, and then you parry an attack at time T + 0.1 seconds, you will attack again at time T + 0.1. So, while tanking mobs, Parry is actually an increase to your dps. Neat.

Now. My question is this: Does this mechanic work the same way for mobs? Meaning, if I attack Onyxia, and she parries, does that reset her swing timer? update: answer = no

If this is true, and I have not tested it or read combat logs to research it, it could have some serious implications. For example, if you are tanking a raid mob, and you take a lot of simultaneous damage and find yourself "hanging by a thread" at 10% health or so, it may be in your best interest to stop attacking.. If the mob parries your attack and counteracts instead of having to wait for its swing timer, it could be the difference between life or death.

Does anyone have any data to confirm or deny this?

Update: Thanks Arashikage and Kenco, among others for verifying this. Really the only question remaining is what Kenco brought up- does parrying an attack reset your swing timer, or does it reduce the time you have to wait by a fixed value? E.G. cuts time until next attack in half, or reduces it by 2 seconds. Or, is the lag we see after a parry simply client->server lag?

Thordin · 06/15/06, 9:47 AM

I've always wondered why Counterattack Lodestone is named like it is. One would think an item named like that should give you a certain chance to counterattack. But if parry really works like this, that would explain the name.

• frmorrison · 06/15/06, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Thordin

But if parry really works like this, that would explain the name.

There is no "if", parry resets the autoattack swing timer. Also Rogues have an abilty called Riptose that only works after you parry as attack, so it helps with that, which truely is a counterattack.

Thorb · 06/15/06, 1:21 PM

It has to be more complicated then "parry resets the autoattack swing timer" I think.

Going in a swarm of 10 mobs in say strat with a slow 2-handers and some defense on at 15-20% parry would mean non stop attack literally. This isn't the case. It's also kinda hard to believer something huge like that would exist without a clear explanation by the devs on the combat mechanics but who knows.

Counterattack Lodestone could be named like that because it got parry and attack on it simply. I mean where is my haste on my quick strike ring?

• frmorrison · 06/15/06, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by Thorb

Going in a swarm of 10 mobs in say strat with a slow 2-handers and some defense on at 15-20% parry would mean non stop attack literally.

Not really, since reseting the autoattack swing timer means just that, so if you had 3 seconds to go or .1 seconds to go, it gets reset to 0 and then you swing.
You can't control when you parry that much, so this mechanic is tough to abuse.

Also names on items mean little, but sometimes they are accurate to what the item does.

henaki · 06/15/06, 1:30 PM

Couldn't it theoretically just work on whatever you're targeting or not reset the auto-attack more than "once" an autoattack session? The intervals on that combat log are too inconsistant for me to figure out if it just gives you an insant attack or it actually resets your swing timer, does anyone have a larger set of data to work with? It just looks like an attack timer reset based on the times but the inconsistancies are too large :/

Kytrarewn · 06/15/06, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Not really, since reseting the autoattack swing timer means just that, so if you had 3 seconds to go or .1 seconds to go, it gets reset to 0 and then you swing.
You can't control when you parry that much, so this mechanic is tough to abuse.

Also names on items mean little, but sometimes they are accurate to what the item does.

Ouch... Hunter with Deterrence + Zin'Rokh + 45% crit Raptor Strike, with Parry Gear (Have we found a use for Thick Qirajihide Belt?).

It'd be stupid to make a build around that, but it'd be pretty fun to try once or twice.

Grayson Carlyle · 06/15/06, 6:26 PM

When you parry, you get 1 second taken off your swing timer, *if the swing timer has more than 1 second left on it.

After the "*" might not be true.

oldmandennis · 06/15/06, 7:47 PM

Hmm...

I haven't looked at it closely, but a straight "swing after parry" doesn't seem like it fits the data. If you were attacked by a swarm of creatures, and parried very frequently, you would just annihilate whichever imp you were targeting. I don't think I've seen that. What Grayson says might be the actual behavior.

If you are having a hard time parsing logs due to lag, you could just do it in aggregate. Equip a white 3second weapon and as much parry gear as possible. Attack an elite mob that doesn't hit hard, and let it go for 5 min. See if you have attacked more then 100 times. Repeat 10 times maybe?

Assume a 5% parry and 1.5 sec mob attack. If parry doesn't affect attack spead, you will have attacked 100 times. If it is always a counterattack, 10 parries x 1.5 sec per parry = 5 more attacks. If it is what Grayson says, 33% of the time the parry has no effect, the rest of times it saves 1 sec, so 6.6 sec or 2 attacks.

Kenco · 06/15/06, 8:39 PM

Parry doesn't give you an instant counterattack. This would be far too powerful. I'm in agreement with Surfacer on this one (i think), i.e. after you parry, half your remaining swing time is deducted. My evidence for this is that with a 3.8 speed weapon, you can observe autoattacks coming more than 1.5 seconds after a parry. My own data is pretty sucky due to ping, but someone in the US shouldn't have trouble getting accurate logs.