I came across this post while lurking through the various WoW boards, and I'd thought I'd bring this question up here.
Do you think this is a viable idea for new itemization?
The biggest reason I ask is that for many players, AQ is considered a "sidegrade" to loot, rather than an improvement. Do you think the same would apply for this type of itemization?
I have been taking a look at itemization recently, especially when new instances like Naxx come out. It just seems to me like whenever Blizzard wants to create more items for an instance, they up the DPS on some weapons to another insane amount, increase some stats or %hit or %crit or +dmg, etc on another. I mean, that is great and all, but I dont think this is the best way for itemization. By the time the expansion or something even further down the line comes out, we will have one-hand swords doing 300dps with top end damage of whatever insane amount and insane +10% to crit. What is wrong with this? Well, I believe this puts a larger gap between those players that can raid and those players that cannot. But even more importantly, it makes everyone the same more or less. Even now, everyone chooses relatively the same items and the majority of trash items get disenchanted.
My solution is, rather than increasing the DPS of some weapon or the +dmg/crit of another item and renaming it something like Axe of Uber Jesusness; why not add functionality to items. Here is an example of one item that Blizzard had a good idea with from the start, but never really explored its possibilities:
Functionality would be like having gloves give a new rank of a certain spell, or decrease the cooldown of another. Even items that give a whole new spell should be considered. And I'm not proposing this for just mage/cloth items. This should be done for items across the board. It would increase the different "types" of players out there and a player can itemize his build so that it suits more to his playstyle. A mage for example, can choose to have a shorter cooldown on his Frost Nova spell or an extra second or two of silence on his Counterspell. I mean, the items dont and shouldnt have to be to the point where they give some godly function where everyone would just choose that item for that specific spot. However, I just think Blizzard should think more about itemization in general instead of just increasing the stats, dps, +dmg or crit for new items and call it a day.
****Edit****
First off, thanks Coreiel for flagging this thread blue.
To address some issues raised and clarify my thoughts:
I dont want to turn this thread into a raiding vs. non-raiding thread or even a melee itemization vs. caster itemization thread (although I did alude to this briefly). Although there are a lot of valid points, I think they should be addressed in another thread. My point is that there is a problem with itemization in general and that functionality should be implemented for all items.
Another point someone brought up was that Blizzard has to scale items with increased stats and +dmg because we have to keep up with the new bigger badder bosses in the new dungeons that come out. Well, I believe that Blizzard should be making fights more dynamic instead of having a bigger boss who just hits harder and has more HP. And, evidence suggests that Blizzard is becoming more aware of this (compare MC boss encounters to BWL and AQ40). So why not apply this same concept to items? Making the items themselves more dynamic instead of scaling it to some uber level.
Some posters suggest that Jewelcrafting will add functionality to items. Yes, but if Blizzard implements it correctly. Honestly, I think Blizzard had more of a "I KNOW, LETS CREATE +10 AGI and +15 SPELL DAMAGE GEMS!! LAWL'" (quote: Petecooper)idea in mind for Jewelcrafting.
However, even if implemented correctly, I think Blizzard should add functionality to items regardless of Jewelcrafting. I dont believe every item will be socketable when the expansion comes out, but I do believe every item should have some sort of scalability to funcitonality.
Also, when I suggest that Blizzard implement functionality that doesnt mean we have to give up stats, crit%, hit% or even +dmg for functionality. I think items should have a combination of stats, crit, hit, +dmg and functionality. I believe Safire and Verilazic are on the right track when I mention ideas for functionality (thread, page 2). Although not entirely refined, they do have some very promising ideas and functions that can be added to current items to create good items that are not imbalanced but add functionality and diversity to itemization.
I understand that this idea might have people carrying around loads of items in their inventory and that people do spend a lot of time trying to even obtain one item (and once they do, forces them into one type of playstyle). One point my guild mate (Lanlaorn) brought up was that items cannot have a function that is deemed absolutely necessary. This makes sense, as one of my aims in this thread is for greater diversification in itemization slots and not force everyone to get one necessary pice. The point of functionality and gear in general is to add flavor to your character and playstyle, NOT force you into one type of character or playstyle. Functionality should be viewed as sort of a "good accessory" that can be used along with a player's current skills. If implemented correctly, one would not have to carry (hopefully) too many items in their item slots. As for item attainability, I think that is an issue that varies from player to player.
Some of the posts in this forum are correct in the foresight of itemization. What happens when we have tier 5,6,7,8? You cant just keep increasing stats and +dmg for each new set of items that come out. There will get to be a point where it just becomes rediculous. Blizzard should look into other functions that items should add to a character instead of the usual mundane modifiers.
p.s. maybe someone can link this thread to other forums (i.e. the warrior, druid, general) to see what other classes think.
I can give you one good reason to not add "gimmick" bonuses to items: the Everquest bard epic 1.0. Basically, what this sword did was act as all instruments (which bards needed to enhance their songs) and give a mod aura to singing all in one. It's not that the weapon itself was so great, but the effect became indispensable. This single item bonus was better than anything bards could possibly loot for several expansions afterward.
What does this have to do with WoW? Eventually, each class would pick up some item that has such an overpowered bonus or effect that they'll never part with it. Or the effect will be so drastically affect game mechanics that all future itemization is affected by it.
For example, imagine if a warrior sword dropped that procced taunt. That would be such an insanely overpowered item effect that warriors would continue using this crappy sword several expansions later. Or, I dunno, a cleric mace that cast mana-free resurrection. Or a rogue dagger that wiped your threat list on a proc. Creative, yes? Game-breaking? Bet your ass it is.
Itemization in WoW is pretty good. They walk a precarious line between balancing items for PVE such that they don't become digustingly overpowered in PVP. If I had any criticism of the itemization, it would be the trinket system. Blackhand's Breadth is probably the best and worst designed trinket in the game. It's so good that rogues will still be wearing it in Naxxramas. I think trinkets should never have raw stats, but rather, have the item effects you're talking about so that there is a real desire to collect a wide variety of situational trinkets. For example, how many rogues actually loot the venemous totem from Broodlord? Nobody. Everyone's using the ZHM and DFT or BB or the Hand of Justice.
What does this have to do with WoW? Eventually, each class would pick up some item that has such an overpowered bonus or effect that they'll never part with it. Or the effect will be so drastically affect game mechanics that all future itemization is affected by it.
The issue, though, is that there area already itemization things like this, especially in the tier 1 sets.
I know tanks that won't give up their 3 piece Might, Priests are discussing the value of 3pc Transcendence vs. their 8pc Faith, Rogues that won't give up their 5pc Nightslayer, Shaman that won't give up their 5pc Earthfury, Bloodfang Gloves for some people, etc.
I'd be more worried about what it would do for encounters and progression. I don't think that anyone wants to see more gimmicky things like the Onyxia Scale Cloak, which is essential for many encounter to be successfully completed for all intents and purposes. Bane weapons in EQ. Resistance Gear. Other such gimmicks.
People dislike seeing equipment that only benefits them in a few fights, but doesn't help them fulfill their class's role for the main part. Saying "Allows you to cast a new rank of Pyroblast" would be just as overpowered as "+30 damage" if not moreso, and would lead to stupid encounter progression.
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What does this have to do with WoW? Eventually, each class would pick up some item that has such an overpowered bonus or effect that they'll never part with it. Or the effect will be so drastically affect game mechanics that all future itemization is affected by it.
3 Peice Transcendence is already viewed like this by many preists.
If itemization proceeds down this path, I think that the trick is to add incremental effects taht are good, but not gamebreakingly so. and that's a tough line to walk.
A sword that procs taunt - broken. One that lowers the cooldown of taunt by 1s - situationally great.
I think the trick is, rather than tie truly powerful effects to 1 item, tie them to multiples. If the effect on 3 peice trans was a single slot's effect - I doubt it would ever be eclipsed without a stonger effect being available. As 3 peices, there is a greater opportunity cost to balance the gain.
3 Peice Transcendence is already viewed like this by many preists.
I find it hilarious that the thread directly above mine (now directly below) is this very question.
Of course this begs the question, is the tiered (and other armor sets) valued because of the stat gains or due to the interesting features that the armor pieces put together create?
While I agree that this could easily create items that are seen as "must haves" and blatantly overpowered items, wouldn't you also be able to create items that have effects that are harder to quantify, therefore giving more items choices rather than clear dps upgrades. I find that for warriors and rogues, with the present system, it's fairly easy to quantify which weapons are going to give the best dps output for a certain item range, therefore severly limiting weapons that these classes shoot for. With these types of additions, that certainty can become more blurred. Of course I have no idea how you would determine item level from these effects.
The other problem is that if it isn't overpowered, players are a fickle bunch and will get irritated at situational gear. Look at Relics, and the number of people who reacted to some of the interesting bonuses by saying "WTF we don't want this crap just give us something with some stats on it like everyone else gets."
The other problem is that if it isn't overpowered, players are a fickle bunch and will get irritated at situational gear. Look at Relics, and the number of people who reacted to some of the interesting bonuses by saying "WTF we don't want this crap just give us something with some stats on it like everyone else gets."
I find this quite funny too since the Paladin Relic from Fank is quite useful on Visc. I am not too familiar with the details on Naxx fights, but I hope it will be just as helpful.
What does this have to do with WoW? Eventually, each class would pick up some item that has such an overpowered bonus or effect that they'll never part with it. Or the effect will be so drastically affect game mechanics that all future itemization is affected by it.
The issue, though, is that there area already itemization things like this, especially in the tier 1 sets.
I know tanks that won't give up their 3 piece Might, Priests are discussing the value of 3pc Transcendence vs. their 8pc Faith, Rogues that won't give up their 5pc Nightslayer, Shaman that won't give up their 5pc Earthfury, Bloodfang Gloves for some people, etc.
The thing about a number of those bonuses is that eventually items so superior will show up that the bonus won't be worth the opportunity cost of using 3-5 item slots. The only really bad ones in there are 3 piece trans, because of how good it is, and Bloodfang Gloves, because the cost of using them in PvP is so low and the gain is so high.
I imagine the "Fists of the Unrelenting" (immune disarm plate gloves) will be the same way for warriors in Naxx, that's the main problem with sticking such a good bonus on items like that.
One of the devs said when quoted with a list of diablo 2 item effects something along the lines of:
"Everyone likes to put in cool effects but it breaks our heart when a fun mechanic becomes broken and we need to nerf the item later."
There are obviously a number of examples. Defence nerf, invulnerable mail and green whelpling armour come to mind. But if effects were a lot more common there would be a lot more, it makes a game insanely harder to balance the more of these little effects are used.
As far as 3 piece trancendance goes i wouldnt be surprise if blizzard has to swap the bonus from 3 to 5 or 8 to prevent it being used even post naxx. So many priests complain about 8 piece t3 sucking but no matter how good it is there is no way it will come close to 3 piece t2's value so it becomes an issue of how much better are 2 pieces of t3 than 2 pieces of t2.
3/8 Transcendence isn't really a problem. It's a very powerful effect, but it's not a unique effect. It's just mana regen, and you can easily compute the exact value of it. Similar for Bloodfang Gloves -- the immunity to disarm is worth 15 agility, as that's what it lets you replace the weapon chain on your OH with. 5/8 NS, while not unique, is not an effect that you can get with other gear.
What does this have to do with WoW? Eventually, each class would pick up some item that has such an overpowered bonus or effect that they'll never part with it. Or the effect will be so drastically affect game mechanics that all future itemization is affected by it.
The issue, though, is that there area already itemization things like this, especially in the tier 1 sets.
I know tanks that won't give up their 3 piece Might, Priests are discussing the value of 3pc Transcendence vs. their 8pc Faith, Rogues that won't give up their 5pc Nightslayer, Shaman that won't give up their 5pc Earthfury, Bloodfang Gloves for some people, etc.
The thing about a number of those bonuses is that eventually items so superior will show up that the bonus won't be worth the opportunity cost of using 3-5 item slots. The only really bad ones in there are 3 piece trans, because of how good it is, and Bloodfang Gloves, because the cost of using them in PvP is so low and the gain is so high.
I imagine the "Fists of the Unrelenting" (immune disarm plate gloves) will be the same way for warriors in Naxx, that's the main problem with sticking such a good bonus on items like that.
I hate swapping out a C'thun drop for a lvl 60 crafted epic, just so I can do group PvP. Those Fists of the Unrelenting are amazing, I've always been a little jealous of the Bloodfang Gloves.
ps: How about a Shield Wall proc Legendary such as http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=23051 ? :)
(yes I know it's fake, and overpowered, but those kind of procs are what they could aim for).
I was hoping they would avoid giving talent like skills for set bonuses but they give cold blood to rogues on 8 piece bonescythe though its on evicerate so it really isnt that bad. I think they are really coming along and being smart with set bonus's and having that subtitute the gimmic mechanics of EQ. Yeah some think that 5 piece NS, 3 piece Trans, 8 piece NW, etc were overpowered but they cycle out with different effects, better stats. None of the effects are longlasting especially given the stat transitions from Tier 1 -> Tier 2 -> Tier 3.
A good example is the 8 piece Earthshatter set bonus (Gives Lightning Shield a 15 mana per secondary effect), see that kind of stuff is the gimmicky things that I think most can appreciate while not breaking anything gamewise. Other examples are Enigma 5 piece, the totemic/holy powers or Cheat Death effects. Quite powerful effects but can be cycled out with tempting Tier 4 3/5/etc set bonuses that make it an actual decision between gearsets.
On the topic of relics how are the Naxx relics vs the AQ relics?
AQ40 to Naxx relic comparison:
(using Zelns info on Naxx relics)
Druid relics is a definate problem. The bonus gained from cast time modifications on healing touch becomes much better than mana reduction in some ways.
.15 less seconds on casting healing touch
vs
25 mana regained on healing touch
So for HT and druids rank 11 casting time reduction is better in HPM, HPS and has a lower cast time above 1592 +healing. And rank 4 casting time reduction is better in HPM, HPS and has a lower cast time above 1025.16 +healing. Depending on how much your gear is short of these numbers it becomes important to factor in that only HPM will become worse if you use the mana reduction trinket. Would probably be worth doing numbers for rank 3 as well since the base heal time drops to 2.5 which is a smaller percentage drop than the mana reduction. The drawbacks to that rank are +healing loses efficiency and presumably the mana reduction does as well.
I would suggest that nearly all druids would take any HPM hit needed just to have the heals land quicker with the HPS bonus being on minimal importance.
Paladin is a flat 36 bonus on all 1.5 second healing spells which is useful considering no other relic helps healing so it doesnt really matter how good or bad it is, will still get used.
Shamans also have 2 healing relics. It becomes more complex though since both are for lesser healing wave which i believe is the less efficient shaman heal. Anyway there is no cast time mod which makes things simple.
up to 10 mana less per cast
vs
up to 45 +healing
Spell times constant. Coefficients i expect are constant.
healing gained per cast
45 * .4285 = 19.28
19.28/10 = 1.928
So once HPM exceeds 1.928 which is pretty much a given apart from healing reductions on the target mana reduction is better in HPM. It is possible if you spec and gear non resto to achieve but would only have minimal application in a PvP situation since the HPS is so bad. In theory the +45 healing can be used for a HPS boost but id find it extremely unlikely.
To summarise, paladins and shamans have an upgrade path from AQ to Naxx in the relic slot and druids almost certainly have a downgrade path.
edit: Made mana cost reductions a little more consistant.
I can give you one good reason to not add "gimmick" bonuses to items: the Everquest bard epic 1.0. Basically, what this sword did was act as all instruments (which bards needed to enhance their songs) and give a mod aura to singing all in one. It's not that the weapon itself was so great, but the effect became indispensable. This single item bonus was better than anything bards could possibly loot for several expansions afterward.
What does this have to do with WoW? Eventually, each class would pick up some item that has such an overpowered bonus or effect that they'll never part with it.
I think I speak for a lot of warriors when I say lifegiving gem pretty much fits this bill (ok so it's not game breaking, but I can't see myself replacing it for a long long time).
I can give you one good reason to not add "gimmick" bonuses to items: the Everquest bard epic 1.0. Basically, what this sword did was act as all instruments (which bards needed to enhance their songs) and give a mod aura to singing all in one. It's not that the weapon itself was so great, but the effect became indispensable. This single item bonus was better than anything bards could possibly loot for several expansions afterward.
What does this have to do with WoW? Eventually, each class would pick up some item that has such an overpowered bonus or effect that they'll never part with it.
I think I speak for a lot of warriors when I say lifegiving gem pretty much fits this bill (ok so it's not game breaking, but I can't see myself replacing it for a long long time).
Yeah same thing with Renataki's for rogues and hunter's, I can't see ever replacing it unless a similar item comes up that's just flat out better and uses the cooldown of Renataki's Charm.
I think I speak for a lot of warriors when I say lifegiving gem pretty much fits this bill (ok so it's not game breaking, but I can't see myself replacing it for a long long time).
Given that it scales with your HP - I can't really think of a trinket that doesn't have a brand new one off effect that you'd replace it for.
What if you had the option of a trinket that was the equivalent of a Styleen's and the effect of lifegiving but only 10%? That seems much more like what blizzard would do, given what all these Naxx trinkets look like.
Yeah same thing with Renataki's for rogues and hunter's, I can't see ever replacing it unless a similar item comes up that's just flat out better and uses the cooldown of Renataki's Charm.
Renataki (the rogue version at least) is a PvP trinket, and even then it's not like it's something unheard of...Thistle Tea does the same thing (of course it's a 5m cooldown instead of a 3m cooldown). But even then, it's hardly something that is indespensable.
Yeah same thing with Renataki's for rogues and hunter's, I can't see ever replacing it unless a similar item comes up that's just flat out better and uses the cooldown of Renataki's Charm.
I've used my hunter trinket from zg 2-3 times? It's a fun little pvp toy, but imo not an optimal choice for pve.
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06/14/06, 6:19 PM
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