So, we got our first taste of the real Chromaggus last night with ignite flesh & acid. After the kills we have made, there is no issue regarding positioning, who stands in LoS or out, and when, and the MT has specc'd appropriate (Shield Wall, Last Stand) and has a number of potions on him to try to keep his HP high.
Nevertheless, we hit an immovable brick wall. All three wipes last night were at about the same place, between 12 and 14% health on Chrom. I am told this is due to his perma frenzy starting at 20%, IF and Acid stacking dots and armor reduction, and simply not being able to keep mitigating the amount of damage being unleashed on the MT with appropriate heals.
Before you were totally BWL geared, what kinds of techniques where you using to try to solve this combination? I'm still not entirely convinced that "putting more healers on the MT" is going to solve this, and it's going to require a more thoughtful approach, such as designate healers that are spamming their heals, regardless of OH, while others are being mana conservative and are aborting the heal if need be, rotating the priority of these healers as their mana pools hit the 50% mark.
I'd be curious to hear other healing strategies put into play.
Really, it's put more healers on the tank. Give all your healers sands so they never get stunned sub-20%. Leave just 2-4 cleansers up top and have mages be decursing.
Not much to say except yes, put more healers on the MT. What's your MT's HP? If it's under 8k buffed, that might be part of the problem as there can definitely be some large spikes. We wiped a few times experiencing this but then we just figured out that we had to just keep increasing the amount of healing for that last 20%. Have your druids save your innervates for then, start innervating healers as they just chain cast.
Having one shaman constantly trying to proc ancestral fortitude is a nice counter to Corrosive Acid. If your MT isn't flasked, zanzaed, and/or chimaerok chopped as well as specced with toughness and last stand, consider it. This set of buffs can be especially tricky and costly though if you have Time Lapse, since you could go through 3 tanks. Don't do something silly like wear even the tiniest bit of FR for ignite like I did here. And make sure your DPS goes all out from 20%, if they aren't already, because the less total time your raid has to support enrage the easier.
I'm no expert, but I think you want a couple of your best geared healers constantly spamming low rank heals, so they never go OOM yet keep up a nice 1-2k HPS on the tank between them.
Drop FR totem/aura and put a hunter with aspect of the wild up for the 20% frenzy. Also, if you have warriors dpsing, you could have them start building threat at around 35-40%(or less that depends on their gear I guess), so if the main tank dies, chrom doesn't run around killing casters. Last budget kill we had, we had 3warriors and 1rogue tanking chrom(same breaths, sloppy healing). You pick it up, reposition it, and evasion/shield wall tank it while your dps keeps going. It's not really "clean" but it works ^^
Hmm, seems to be a bit of debate about FR vs. no FR gear on this encounter. Why the discrepancy?
Ignite ticks cause a ton of damage over a very long period of time, but the problem under 20% is dying to spike. With the massive amount of healing on your tank ignite is pretty much negligible and only affects your raid if others get hit with it. Side note, moderate FR is a possibility for incinerate to mitigate a possibly huge unresisted breath+physical spike. But it's just not worth it on ignite, especially with acid. The acid debuff is going to destroy your tank's armor before total BWL gear so he needs to be decked out in the best physical defense gear available to him. There's no way to get reasonably useful FR without significantly raising your chance to be crit, reducing your HP, and gimping block/parry/dodge.
If you want to start talking about resists, you have to remember how the resist mechanic in this game works and how it affects your Time To Live (TTL.)
Here's some quick math for DD stuff. Say your tank (named Tank) has 10000 hp, and no healers. Tank is also getting hit by a L60 1k bolt every 1 second, for 1000 dps.
Here's Tank's TTL.
10000/1000 = 10 seconds before tank dies.
Now lets say Tank gets a 100 resist buff. On average, with DD spells, 25% of the incoming damage will be resisted.
10000/750 = 13.333. 14 seconds before Tank dies.
Add on another 100 resists, for a total of 200 resist. 50% spell mitigation on average.
10000/500 = 20 seconds before Tank's taking a dirt nap.
Throw on 100 more resists, for a total of 300 resist. 75% average spell mitigation against L60 DD spells.
10000/250 = 40 second TTL.
So. With a ten-second base, let's calculate the increase in TTL, for each respective resist level.
100R.
13.333s - 10s = 3.333s increase in TTL, or 33% more TTL on average. In this example, 4s increase due to rounding.
200R.
20s - 10s = 10s increase in TTL. Double the time to live.
300R.
40s - 10s = 30s increase. Quadruple the base TTL.
Now, that's all for DD spells, with no secondary effect. DoTs work differently, and I'm not sure on how differently they work. I believe they just have a chance to resist only on the initial application, though I don't know the average resist chances for that. But, working from that knowledge, I think adding even 315 resist wouldn't necessarily solve the chromag problem being experienced. If one of the ignites sneaks through on the frenzy, the tank will still be taking full damage from the DoT, and whatever additional damage from the sacrificed physical mitigation stats.
But, I played a paladin, not a tank. Warriors may have more information, and more relevant information.
If using "he or she" seems awkward to you, try using a neutral gender term. Some people use s/he, others find that clumsy, and try using variations on pronunciation, such has zer or zier. Unfortunately, English doesn't really have the concept for neutral genders, so there's no real consensus yet. But that leaves room for one to be built.
If you're not killing nef because ignite is mauling your tank (and it does) then a quick 5minute trip to possibly negate it 33% of the time sounds well worth it imo.
Originally Posted by Fric
Fingering a girl while she argues with her husband-to-be is perhaps my new low point morally in my horribly debauched life
ZG trinket and greater stonescale potions to reduce physical damage taken when chrommy is down to 20%. Sand on mt healers and hunters take care of tranq. Greater fireprot might also help a bit and right usage of last stand, life giving gem and shield wall.
Kharzaljim, it wouldn't even work for incinerate in my opinion. Equipping up to that amount of FR would gimp you so much that sub 20% during a frenzy your hunters can't remove due to timing of breath will most likely mean your death from physical damage.
In my opinion, pure tanking gear is the best way to go and maybe pick among your T1 / T2 gear for the items with +FR on it if you have incinerate / ignite flesh. Also have the tank save lifegiving gem / last stand for those frenzy + breath combos, they're mean.
Yeah, I'm not seeing the complex issue here. You know exactly what killed your tank and can review the combat log: A lack of heals. Chromaggus does less spike damage than Broodlord or Firemaw. There's no "ouch, 4000 Shadow Flame and double-crushing Thrash, oops" or "oh hey, Uppercut+Unbalancing+Thrash for 11000" with Chromaggus. He will melee you hard, and you will have Ignite ticking on you for 700 and acid ticking on you for 1k. So you're taking 1700 damage every 3 seconds, plus Chromaggus meleeing you pretty hard and pretty fast. What's killing your tank is lack of heals landing over a span of multiple seconds, not a burst of spike damage.
If you can get to 20% smoothly, then innervate, pop mana pots, etc., and get your healers ready to apply tons of healing for the last 20%, which will go quickly thanks to executes and such. The most dangerous 15 seconds will be right after Acid during the last 20%. But you know when that's coming. If the tank has Last Stand, or Shield Wall, or a Lifegiving Gem, that's the time to use it. Greater Stoneshield Pot for the last 20%, as noted, is also your friend.
Most importantly, understand that this is actually good practice for various fights that you have ahead of you. Both your healers and your tank are going to need to be capable of responding to predictable bursts of increased damage over time (as opposed to pure spike damage) from mobs.
That's kind of my point, Whitemane. I guess I didn't explain it very well. All that math up there is really for a best-case scenario, for resist gear in general. A fight like Firemaw or some such. In my opinion, even in that situation low levels of resists really aren't worth it, 200+ is where it really starts to make a difference. Note: I'm assuming steady healing in this conclusion. For dps classes, it varies.
Chromaggus is nearly a worst-case scenario for resist gear. Not only is much of the damage physical, but all of the elemental damage is perfectly predictable. While you can't cook up a nice big healing touch, because of LoS, your healers should still be preparing themselves for the incoming spike. Step around the corner with a PW:S on the tank, etc.
As to the OP's problem, it sounds like you're having trouble with your healing strategy. Guild I was in usually was a little healer heavy. We'd set up very organized healing for the first 80%, and at 20% all of the healers would just spam with flash heal or whatever. Full on healing as much and as fast as they can. Theres a couple things to watch for. One, is make sure your healers aren't all healing in the same clump. Shouldn't really be a problem, a steady group of healers learns to work together. The other problem isn't in the last 20%, although that's where it shows up. If in the first 80% your healers are having to burn too much mana in overhealing, then they may not have enough mana to full out spam through the last 20%, and they may be trying to conserve mana. Alternately, if most of your healers enter 20% with plenty of mana and still manage to spam themselves out, then blame it on your dps. That's all I can think of that hasn't already been covered.
If using "he or she" seems awkward to you, try using a neutral gender term. Some people use s/he, others find that clumsy, and try using variations on pronunciation, such has zer or zier. Unfortunately, English doesn't really have the concept for neutral genders, so there's no real consensus yet. But that leaves room for one to be built.
Chromaggus is nearly a worst-case scenario for resist gear. Not only is much of the damage physical, but all of the elemental damage is perfectly predictable. While you can't cook up a nice big healing touch, because of LoS, your healers should still be preparing themselves for the incoming spike. Step around the corner with a PW:S on the tank, etc.
Since when was LOS a prolem for MT healing on Chrom?
Our guild tanks him next to the ramp down to firemaws room and we never have any LOS issues what so ever on MT healing.
Since when was LOS a prolem for MT healing on Chrom?
Our guild tanks him next to the ramp down to firemaws room and we never have any LOS issues what so ever on MT healing.
It depends where you tank Chrom. If you healers are running out of LoS of Chrom to dodge a breath, then they can't time a 3.5s cast to land .5s after a breath hits. If you've got some crazy pull and your healers never have to move, more power to you.
If using "he or she" seems awkward to you, try using a neutral gender term. Some people use s/he, others find that clumsy, and try using variations on pronunciation, such has zer or zier. Unfortunately, English doesn't really have the concept for neutral genders, so there's no real consensus yet. But that leaves room for one to be built.
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51829 has already been briefly mentioned, and if your tank does not have styleen's and lifegiving gem, use this relativley easy to obtain trinket after an acid spit and you will ease the healing for a moment. Not to mention you can use it several times before 20% in the fight to make it that much easier. I can only guess it stacks with the armor potion. It's a rough solution, but acid can be a bitch.
Since when was LOS a prolem for MT healing on Chrom?
Our guild tanks him next to the ramp down to firemaws room and we never have any LOS issues what so ever on MT healing.
It depends where you tank Chrom. If you healers are running out of LoS of Chrom to dodge a breath, then they can't time a 3.5s cast to land .5s after a breath hits. If you've got some crazy pull and your healers never have to move, more power to you.
Erm, there are atleast 5 locations i can think of right off my head where you can tank chromaggus and your healers are oolos of him, yet in los to your MT. Tanking him anywhere else is jsut asking for trouble.
When selecting a spot to tank chromaggus, placing healers permanently out of LOS should be number one on your list. With so many locations available with this quality, if your position doesn't afford this protection to your healers, you should change strats.
It would be like using quick healing rotations in FR gear in LOS on Firemaw; possibly doable but far from optimal. Speaking of, has anyone ever done Firemaw that way?
Most importantly, understand that this is actually good practice for various fights that you have ahead of you. Both your healers and your tank are going to need to be capable of responding to predictable bursts of increased damage over time (as opposed to pure spike damage) from mobs.
06/17/06, 10:21 PM
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