Malan

I've been having a big discussion about moving to a zero-sum system, and a few people have asked how does the system (such as the EJ one) handle things like feral/moonkin/enhance shaman/elemental shaman/shadow priest gear for the "hybrid classes"? Obviously if something is a benefit to a pure dps class I could see it going to that class instead (like Nelth's Tear or similar), but what about things like Gloves of Ebu for moonkin druids? Do they pay full price for the item, or is loot like that priced lower, or a % of the full price based on a sidegrade/downgrade?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

• DeeNogger

our guild uses a zero sum system, and as a shadow preist, i can tell you from first hand that i pay full price for the shadow gear i grab now and again. which i have no problem with.

I write things The word of DeeNogger New Blog! 7/6/2009

 

◊ Lord BEEF

I believe this is answered in the big sticky thread, but you can upgrade to and from it. For example, you can upgrade from cenarion chest, to malfurion's bulwark, to stormrage chest.

That said we have no moonkins or shadow priests

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Felippe

The problem with damage/healing is that it's both healing and damage. Therefore, in some cases it can be an upgrade to their primary raid role, which is healing, and in others it's not an upgrade to their primary role.

In the case of Gloves of Ebru versus Stormrage Handguards, the Gloves of Ebru are in fact a downgrade healing wise (and even straight up item level wise), but probably a full upgrade DPS wise.

So what it comes down to, would you prefer to encourage upgrades for the primary raid role by using a discount system for +healing upgrades and having your raiders pay the full price for other items, or do you want everything to be the same price, no matter what.

edit: Although I definitely think there should be some priority enforced when it comes to gear that might be contested by several classes, such as cloth pieces. I have major problems with priests trying to take Ebony Flame Gloves over warlocks, since they are the best raid-DPS gloves in the game.

 

Pizzarino

It's hard for this to actually become a problem if you guild has responsible players. Lets say you go with 3 warlocks and 6 priests. Warlocks have 100% of their DKP to spend on DPS stuff while the priests are still in competition for their healing gear. After the warlocks have everything priests are only competiting with themselves.

The first 2-3 leggings of immersion that dropped were disenchanted in my guild. Only after the price was lowered our ONE balance druid bother to pick them up.

 

• DeeNogger

i only have gotten shadow damage gear when it was going to be DE'd. to grab it over a warlock is assholian, and hurts the raid/guild overall. something i wont do, but a more.... selfish player would not. there fore priorities are set.

I write things The word of DeeNogger New Blog! 7/6/2009

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Our druids get leggings of immersion for free because disenchanting things is silly

Check out my friend's bitchin' Lord of the Rings Art

 

◊ Anias

We don't prioritize DPS items, because farming time (soon to be leveling time) > Raid time, so it seems rather retarded to have 10 excellent farmers (who still need sleep) and 30 crappy ones, over 40 good farmers.

DPS classes spend the majority of their item aquisitions on dps gear. They're going to have more of it, and overall better sets, than your healers/tanks. You don't have to kick your healers/tanks in the nuts and say "No farming repair bills, honor for rank 3, mats for consumables, or level 70".

Of course, your milage may vary. In our system we see the first x drops tend to go for full, generally to the obvious classes because they're willing to go full on it, and the next y drops go for upgrade to the secondary classes that you'd predict for that item, and then the last z drops go for downgrade to primary and tertiary classes that weren't interested in spending points on it.

If you have people buying stuff that makes no sense in any situation at all, that's a people problem, and you want to identify it early. People who don't know enough about their class to realize that (for instance) perditions blade doesn't make any sense for a druid, are going to drive you crazy when you try to explain "stand 10 yards apart" or "Tanks at 12, healer camp at 4, Blast pit at 8". Having a priority system seems like it hurts your guild a lot more than it helps it. For one thing -- Morons can't be identified easily, for another -- your healers/tanks kill stuff outside/inside of raid time inefficiently, which has repercussions for preparedness, and for flexibility during encounters where your raid composition is too many tanks/healers.

I understand why dps classes want priorities. I just think they're being retarded. >.<

Math is very easy, explaining math is quite difficult.

 

diospadre

Nobody who can heal pays shit for repair costs shut up.

Also farming in this game is almost completely unnecesary for raiding. All a guild needs is a couple herbalists, and no amount of taunt dragonhide crap will make you better at that.

 

• Zyla

man everyone hates on moonkin...:(

People complain content is too easy in this game. Dont you understand that moonkin form was put into the game as a handicap for good guilds?The easier the encounter, the higher the moonkin rating, ie, the amount of moonkin you have to bring to make the content difficult. Think about how this could extend old content. Suddenly Rag might seem a lot harder if you're bringing 10 moonkin. The dance alone makes all the wipes worth it. Its difficult to be demoralized when you see a quartet of moonkin all synced up, throwin down.

Ya'll just arent thinking outside the box on this one. Inject new life into your tired content with MOONKIN!

We don't use words like that...St. Louise is listening!

 

◊ Zoid

Dios, I created Zoltana (my warrior alt) just to farm to feed my priest. It wasn't until 1.10 and I could actually spec holy/disc and get a decent damage/healing hybrid build that I stopped needing to use my warrior alt.

How the fuck was I supposed to pay for my repairs, major mana/dreamless potions, essence of air/water for healing enchants and countless shards, etc. Farming on a Disc/Holy priest before 1.10 was an excercise in utter frustration. You'll notice I haven't been playing Zoltana much at all since 1.10 has hit. I've pretty much retired her since I can actually kill shit with my priest now.

It must be nice being a tank and having all your flasks and greater defense potions handed to you. Every single class has to put their effort in outside of raiding. You're expected to have your needed consumables and all your gear enchanted correctly for the raid.

I just dropped enchanting to train herbalism again to farm for herbs so I can start getting my consumables together for Naxx. Brilliant mana oil, major manas, etc. You think we're going to beat Patchwerk without all that?

So don't give anyone shit about repair costs, or maybe I'll think about drinking that major mana potion that cost me 3g just to keep you alive so you don't have to pay repairs on another death.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

With herbalism I've never had much of any problem making money and being able to provide my own consumables.

Check out my friend's bitchin' Lord of the Rings Art

 

• Zyla

herbalism seems to be the equivalent of engineering in pvp - sure you could survive without it, but it makes life so much easier. If you're a serious raider ( and even more especially true if you're a healer) then you either have herbalism on your main, or you have a herbing alt.

We don't use words like that...St. Louise is listening!

 

◊ Shalas

Repair costs are pretty trivial compared to consumable costs. A brilliant mana oil, mageblood potion and a couple major mana pots is easily 10g per fight.

I ended up grinding a hunter to 60 for money. I hit 60 at 8 days played and well over 2000g. Despite having damage epics on my priest, my greened-out hunter can still farm better. Lower dps, but no downtime compared to 30 seconds of drinking every two mobs (or terrible dps and low downtime). My hunter is even better at herbing than my priest -- aspect of the cheetah, feign death and having a pet are all great time savers while herbing.

 

• moz

No, just no. If you only knew how expensive it actually was.

 

◊ Jaytan

This argument is dumb, who cares who pays more for repair costs. Does it make you feel important that you pay more than someone else per raid?

 

• moz

This wasn't an argument, I was clarifying the fact that if you got the impression that tanks had their consumables handed to them (sans flasks for most things) for each fight you were sorely mistaken.

 

diospadre

Ok I'll join a different guild since I don't have enchants or consumables and don't deserve to be in EJ.

Like I said before there is no reason to farm mobs in this game.

 

• Bad Luck

<Snake Vendor>

 

◊ Praetorian

Sometimes I'll go through a Mageblood and 3-4 Major Manas or GDS during a given wipe, and I know for a fact that my costs pale by comparison to our MTs' costs whenever we wipe. Take a look at Moz's or Tehax's buff lists before they tank anything important, and keep tabs on Stoneshield use during fights -- except for a Flask for Emps and Chimeraeok Chops, none of that is subsidized.

That said, basically, if you aren't a DPS class capable of farming efficiently, you should be an herbalist so you can supply your own consumables. I only manage to get by without herbalism and as a class that sucks at farming because I make a couple hundred gold a week crafting stuff like Lionheart Helm, Dark Iron stuff, Dreamscale Breastplates, etc.

I don't buy the argument that a priest needs epic DPS gear to farm effectively, because what the epic stuff tends to give you is a bit more longevity, which you don't need while farming. Grab blues like the ZG offensive rings, Crimson Felt Hat, etc. What Oracle and its ilk give you is the ability to continue to nuke for a sustained period of time -- not necessarily the abiltiy to kill faster. If you're farming with a couple of stacks of mage water, the difference really isn't that significant.

Edit: However, everything filters down eventually. Our protection tanks have DPS gear. Our druids have Boots of the Shadow Flame, Mantles of Wicked Revenge, and so forth. And I fully expect every active druid/priest to have a set of Genesis or Oracle by the time the Expansion comes out and they need to level to 70. Saying they don't get something first is hardly the same as saying they can never get it.

 

• Snowy

Plate wearers (and the MT in particular) still ring up the highest repair bills by far - keep in mind the MT is the one who is taking the most hits, and also is likely dying the most. I think most guilds supply flasks due to the cost, but everything else is usually on their own.

Since the talent review, priests definitely do not need epic DPS gear to farm. All it does is speed up the process some. One little tip is to run Sm Strath with 3 people - when you're splitting money from orbs and the other drops, it adds up fast, and the fun factor is there watching a rogue tank the whole thing, for example. Personally I grind out either the satyrs in Azshara (demonic runes are a nice byproduct), or during light server time, Silithus. Of course I'm being somewhat hypocritical since I'm a shadow priest, but I did try out holy/disc for a short time to see how it was and I can't say I was majorly gimped. It was just a little slower.

As others alluded to though, herbalism is the true money winner. If you can get it + alch up on an alt, you can cut down a lot of your own costs. I leveled a shaman to 53 and that's been good enough to farm Un'Goro/Azshara. I can make my own Greater Arcane Elixirs, etc.. and mail mats for Mageblood/GDS/Flasks to our best alch. Sure, it's a little bit of a grind, but what isn't in this game?

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

Elendril

i haven't killed a mob outside a raid instance for months and i make zero money with my professions (tribal LW/engineering) and i have no problem keeping up with consumables and repair bills (and i even dropped 1k g on bijous to get ZG exalted not too long ago). granted, part of that is due to feign death, but there aren't really that many feignable fights anymore (that we ever wipe on, at least). to be fair, i skimp on mana potions these days, using only Combat Mana Pots rather than Majors since the farmers got banned and stacks went from 5g to 25g real quick, and occasionally have my mongoose pots handed to me by loving guildmates who understand my addiction, but i use solely ice-threaded arrows (and i would use thorium except for the fact that i never have enough inventory space to actually craft bullet and go to the quest dude to exchange them) and have taken to using mana oils on longer fights. so yeah - i can't really see how people really ever need to farm, at least regularly.

 

Kalince

If you have a decent amount of alts (running 4 35+ here) use up all their secondary profession as transmuters. Arcanite/Mooncloth/Refined Salt, you can usually just buy the reagents transmute and profit. A mooncloth per day (plus the purchase of cheap DE'able greens off the AH then selling the dust/essence) has kept me well above my reagent/repair costs.

 

Felippe

There lies the problem. The fact is, with an open bidding system you will get this sort of thing. From priests grabbing Ebony Flame Gloves, to Hunters/Paladins taking Ashkandi.

I'm with the general opinion that it's silly to disenchant gear if there's somebody in the raid for whom it is an upgrade or sidegrade. For example Wristguards of Stability drop and none of the rogues want it, so it goes to a 27/0/24 Druid because he can use it.

Like Praetorian said, once the main classes get the gear then there's no reason not to let other classes take them.

 

Rachel

Oddly enough, my mage alt pays for my warrior via herbalism. I regularly farm all my own potions for raiding (though this reminds me that I'm running low on a few things), and sell herbs I don't need as a source of income. I almost never have to pay for any enchanting mats besides librams, because it's easy to stockpile shards and GEEs if you still go to 5-man instances.

I've never had to go off farming mobs just to pay for repairs or consumables or enchants.