Our guild uses loot council, so there's no strict dkp tracking. However, if two people are asking for an item and their raid attendance is similar, then donations can act as a tie-breaker between the two.
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Obviously I look at individual buff habits from a long-term perspective. If work is kicking your ass this week and you only have time to log on and raid but not replenish your stock of consumables, of course that's fine. But some people never seem to have them, ever, and are always the same people asking "hey anyone got a spare nature pot?" week after week.
More scary are those individuals who don't have their potions and yet aren't willing to speak up and ask for some. They then just quietly die or quietly not do as much dps or healing as they should and the raid wipes at 1%. I've started bringing materials to raids to hand out and advertise on raid chat to open trade with me if anyone needs some items (nature protection potions, mana oils, and mageblood pots mostly). I'm not an officer on the loot council, so I think some people (and I tend to have a steady client list) are more willing to open trade with me than an officer, because they feel they won't be penalized by taking items from me. At the end of the raid week, I then submit a list of the items I handed out in raids on our contribution forum to be added as my guild contribution.
There was a contribution system that some of the officers were talking about a couple months ago that never got implemented, but it sounded like a neat idea. It was a "contribution decay" system. The idea would be that individuals would be given a certain amount of contribution points according to the amount and type of items that the person hands in. The items that earn contribution points would change periodically depending on guild needs. Over time, the contribution points would decay (e.g. 10 points each day). If you were in positive territory, you would be eligible to get items. If you were in negative territory, you would not be eligible to receive items. You could still come on raids and earn credit for attendance, but if some hot item drops, you would be passed over until your contribution points got into positive territory. The idea was to set the threshold to something reasonably low that someone working and with a family could still pass. The benefit of the system was that you could choose when or how to make your contributions. You could spend one day gathering a ton of mats and be set for a month. Or, you could slowly and gradually send in a piece of mooncloth or a few herbs each week. This also would have the benefit of not making people feel like they're competing against their own guildmates. There's no sense of "Oh, crap! So-n-so sent in 150 gromsblood! If I want that Dark Edge of Insanity, I'd better buy some gold off ebay to send it to make sure I beat him on the contribution list!"
As an FYI to further shape this conversation, we're currently at the "wipe on Vael...a lot" stage. I don't think we really need flasks for Vael but Broodlord will be another matter entirely. One problem (I think) is that we currently random 1000 out the BOE blues we get off Rag/Onyxia. That gold would be much better served going to the guild bank to help pay for guild consumables (flasks, primarily).
our DKP system is not zero sum, and we have a materials turn-in policy that allows a combination of flasks/repair bots and soon-to-be stoneshield potions to be turned in for a total of 5 DKP per month per person. for sake of comparison, we give 2 DKP per boss kill, so the total DKP that one can earn via materials in a given month is largely trivial.
our DKP system is not zero sum, and we have a materials turn-in policy that allows a combination of flasks/repair bots and soon-to-be stoneshield potions to be turned in for a total of 5 DKP per month per person. for sake of comparison, we give 2 DKP per boss kill, so the total DKP that one can earn via materials in a given month is largely trivial.
What do things cost in your system though? How many items can I buy with 20 dkp (ie every 4 months)? It can add up, especially if the top guy for dkp never changes because of it (he essentially gets all the rare/powerful stuff if he plays his cards right). If it works for you, great, but it really seems like it'd be ripe for abuse.
Ashuko, you probably want those blues to start going to the guildbank unless people want to buy them off the guild. You're really going to need funds for stuff that is common use and it's a way to "tax" the guild without actually charging anything. Also, elemental fire should probably go to Greater FR pots for the guild if it isn't already. When you get a string of bad luck and lots of healers get BA on Vael, the pots can help keep the dps up a bit longer. I wouldn't waste the flasks on Broodlord until you get some practice in and get used to how the fight works (tank transitions in particular).
our DKP system is not zero sum, and we have a materials turn-in policy that allows a combination of flasks/repair bots and soon-to-be stoneshield potions to be turned in for a total of 5 DKP per month per person. for sake of comparison, we give 2 DKP per boss kill, so the total DKP that one can earn via materials in a given month is largely trivial.
What do things cost in your system though? How many items can I buy with 20 dkp (ie every 4 months)? It can add up, especially if the top guy for dkp never changes because of it (he essentially gets all the rare/powerful stuff if he plays his cards right). If it works for you, great, but it really seems like it'd be ripe for abuse.
our average item in AQ is around 50 dkp.
we have a separate DKP system for Naxx, which gives 2 points per 5 point turn-in (or something like that - we're ironing out the details). the average cost of an item in Naxx is fairly comparable to AQ - the set bracers/belts are 25, boots/gloves/shoulders 35, helm/legs/chest 50, or something like that - it's all based on an ilvl formula.
Philosophically I guess I'm against the DKP for mats because I prefer having people who believe in a guild, who are willing to take time out to help the guild, not expecting any kind of immediate reward for it. The reward is more invisible (the officers recognizing who is a great guildie, and someone we want part of our core group), but it's still very real.
Exactly. If we're going to be pulling a progress raid night, and I don't have 15 Greater, 10 Superior, and 10 Major Mana potions, along with Nightfin/Sagefish, Mana Oil, and Protection Potions, I don't feel like I'm contributing to the raid. Bringing those and contributing is what keeps me guilded, gets me raid invites, gets gear for myself and my alt, and might get an orange staff for me. That's enough for me.
I am curious what your guilds do about members who work/school and don't have time to farm (or what little time they have would be a waste because they play a resto druid, holy priest, etc.)
Do you help them out with guild funds for repairs and/or consumables?
Originally Posted by masanbol
It probably shouldn't surprise me that the first applications of one of the coolest creature designers ever made is going to be cockmonsters and titwalkers.
Originally Posted by Zyla
I mean christ, cunnilingus is much like being a resto shaman, you spam the button and let it do the work. So long as you change targets as appropriate you don't need to put any thought into it.
/gkick doesn't really sound like an option here. If your guild isn't close to hardcore, you can't just start shedding members and expect to fill your 40 man roster.
The way to stop people from ebaying their way to purples is to limit it. One weeks worth of consumables is worth one boss. If everybody shows up with what they need and an eel, everybody stays even and there is no relative change in who gets loot. If somebody shows up with double what they need, credit their next weeks account, but award no more DKP. If somebody shows up with nothing, split his farm DKP amongst the people who farmed extra. If somebody is consistantly putting in extra time outside of the raid, shouldn't they be rewarded? The best case scenario is that this little nudge gets the "casuals" off their asses for an hour or two per week, and the system becomes irrelvent.
If they are wiping on Vael, they probably are sharding very little loot at the moment. That kindof limits the shards for mats idea.
I am curious what your guilds do about members who work/school and don't have time to farm (or what little time they have would be a waste because they play a resto druid, holy priest, etc.)
Do you help them out with guild funds for repairs and/or consumables?
Most of us are pretty close knit, so we have no problems about helping out people who we know time is tight for. We have one priest in particular who probably has 500 greater fire protection potions in the bank, always carries around 100 major manas, and doesn't mind sharing with people who need them who don't beg for them every week -- i.e. the people you listed above.
One thing in particular that is nice to do for people low on money is to get an elite team to go run SM Strath. You can pound out 2 or 3 runs pretty quickly and usually everyone is going to walk away with a righteous orb and a few large brilliant shards.
We offer near AH gold prices for needed mats. Send the mats COD to the right bank and voila, no AH cut :) Prices and mats list updated weekly or so.
Guildies who are available to farm, get paid well, and the needed expensive pots are provided as needed. Now, there's obviously a fair amount of trust required as I've had 5 Stoneshield pots in my pack for a few days and only intend to use them when appropriate as well as not selling them. :) oh how i wish...
Our guild bank is reasonably intelligent in selling BoE blues on the AH for good prices which keeps us able to support this program. The pain in doing a guild or mostly guild run and mailing a BoE drop to the bank is tempered by the free pots.
I am curious what your guilds do about members who work/school and don't have time to farm (or what little time they have would be a waste because they play a resto druid, holy priest, etc.)
Do you help them out with guild funds for repairs and/or consumables?
If all 40+ raid members contribute a little, the amount of contribution needed from each person is very small. It shouldn't take more than an hour a week, and as Snowy suggested, farming sessions can be made fun by having small group guild runs in instances to get gold, shards, or orbs, and simultaneously those runs can help your own character by obtaining reputation and maybe a little cash. "Farming" could also be as simple as using the cash you get in BWL to buy some cheap essence of undeath off the AH and log in for a minute each day to transmute it into essence of water to donate to the guild. Or to buy felcloth and turn it into mooncloth to donate to the guild. It really doesn't have to be all that much as long as everyone is involved. Problems arise when a good portion of the raid thinks that just showing up is contribution enough and only a few "uber contributers" end up carrying the whole burden themselves. That's what a good guild contribution tracking system should try to prevent.
Regarding the holy priest / resto druid issue, I am keenly aware of this issue, since I play a holy priest. I took up herbalism specifically so that I could contribute to the guild without having to inefficiently kill a lot of mobs. However, I would ask on behalf of all healers that your guild toss a few dps scraps to your healers to use outside of raids. Yes, mages and warlocks should get the best damage gear, but be willing to give some lesser damage/healing items to your priests and lesser attack power leather items to your druids so that they can enjoy themselves a little bit outside of raids and farm a bit for themselves and your guild.
We generally know who can farm and who can't. One of our DPS warriors was burning for rank 13; he didn't have time to farm, as a result (between raiding and keeping standing, ain't leave much time.)
So when he had repair bills he couldn't cover, one of us would throw him some cash. Rather have him there than have the 5-10g. No payback expected, beyond having smoother raids for having one of our better warriors there, and eventually smoother raids for him having better DPS gear. It wasn't a guild-mandated thing - it was a "we're friends, you need, we got" thing.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
The way I see it, which echoes other's sentiments, is there's two types of consumables...
1. Guild consumables like Flask of the Titans. These should be provided by the guild. It should not be the burden of an individual to go out and farm 30 Gromsblood, the guild should provide it in some fashion. What we do is two things...first, we have guild members who are Herbalists/Fishermen CoD materials to our vault. We typically set these prices a little lower than the AH prices. So this way the people who go out and farm do get a tangible reward out of it, and the gold is something they can use to cover repairs and what not. The second thing we do is just buy stuff of the AH as needed. We have like 40 flasks banked atm and more than that in mats also sitting around.
2. Individual consumables like Elixir of Mongoose, GNPPs, Major Mana/Healing potions, and so on. These are 100% the burden of the individual raider. People who don't want to put in the effort to acquire consumables should be penalized in some fashion (often just talking to them and sitting them out on raids for someone else who does, is more than enough). However, at the same time I'm pretty stingy with my consumables. Hunters have a little more leeway since a lot of times they can FD out of it, but for other classes I never recommend burning consumables when we are still learning the fight.
Do the regular stones help hunters? Back to the consecrated stones, if you DW, do you get 200RAP? If you are meleeing and use 2 stones, do you get 200AP? Or 100?
06/29/06, 11:27 AM
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