Interesting. We play it much more conservatively. I'd bring 17 healers to Patchwerk every week given a choice (6 priests 6 shamans 5 druids). I'm pretty sure we had 17 this past week, and we killed him in 6:40 or so. The extra healers give us a lot more stability on the fight. We've never had anything resembling DPS issues, whereas healing has very much been a problem (average HS of ~7200 on tanks with <10k hp sucks a lot). We'll never wipe due to lack of DPS. We only wipe due to lack of healing. A 6:20 pace instead of a 6:40 pace means nothing if you lose an offtank 3 minutes in or start running OOM 5 minutes in.
And yeah, when we killed Thaddius last night he berserked at 1% and obliterated our "negative" group and then the "positive" group burned him down before he could get off another chain lightning. Our DMs were a mix of mages and rogues, with fury warriors mixed in, though they were having to hold back a lot due to aggro concerns (WTB BoS -- having to choose whether to give your group aggro reduction or 60 NR is a pain). Our fury warrior who has a Fetish of the Sand Reaver to pop early and then again at 20% was #1 on DMs by a decent margin, and he mainhands a damn Deathbringer (needs less Eye of Diminution and more Thaddius mace). With the lightning damage going around, and the resulting rage supply, fury warriors are absolutely nasty on that fight.
And yes, hunters lagged somewhat behind, partly due to positioning issues that left them with a slightly lower multiplier than most other DPS.
A 6:20 pace instead of a 6:40 pace means nothing if you lose an offtank 3 minutes in or start running OOM 5 minutes in.
Actually, on our first kill we lost our third hs tank before Patch hit 90% health. He killed 6 dps during the fight (four were rezzed back in) and we still managed to win. I am surprised your average HS is so high. Our average HS is 6500 (6300 for our best tank) out of 300ish strikes. Perhaps you set up your healing differently, but with that many priests and shaman your AC buff should be kept up near 100% of the time. We use low rank spam healing. I think a lot of other guilds are using a three big heals strategy. Which means you probably don't have the AC buff up much. It is really interesting watching HS tank health on this fight for sure with our healing set up. We also use only 3 priests for the MT.
Our DMs were a mix of mages and rogues, with fury warriors mixed in, though they were having to hold back a lot due to aggro concerns (WTB BoS -- having to choose whether to give your group aggro reduction or 60 NR is a pain). Our fury warrior who has a Fetish of the Sand Reaver to pop early and then again at 20% was #1 on DMs by a decent margin, and he mainhands a damn Deathbringer (needs less Eye of Diminution and more Thaddius mace). With the lightning damage going around, and the resulting rage supply, fury warriors are absolutely nasty on that fight.
We had 11 warriors that fight. Three were tank specced. We only had 11 healers. 6 priests, 2 paladins, 3 druids.
Salvation... yes, I think it is important, though I firmly believe most fights it isn't needed. But lets just say that the fights Muraevin survived he was ~20% higher dps than the others. However, he was using HS basically every single hit. So, the other warriors probably did not need salvation (he is our only dual wield fury warrior). The rogues certainly didn't need salvation, the mages certainly didn't need salvation. etc etc. But yes, mura would not be able to dominate the DPS chart without salvation. No way he could use HS as much as he does. But that is a high aggro ability.
If I remember correctly our top two damage dealers were 380k a piece and were warriors. Rogues were 350k. Mages 320k. Warlocks 200k. Hunters 180k. My bet is that Muraevin would have made 450k though.
Next fight I will probably just salvation the warriors and kings the rest if we have to make that trade off. (I prefer 3 paladins so we don't have to make that trade off.)
Right now, about the only reason we want to bring hunters is for the Aura. But the way we position him, they only get to use ranged consistently 75% of the time.
Right now, about the only reason we want to bring hunters is for the Aura. But the way we position him, they only get to use ranged consistently 75% of the time.
yeah, our positioning makes it hard to get range, and it seems like it's probably more useful to have hunters standing in the rest of the charge clump to give the damage bonus than trying to get range to do real damage ourselves.
Though I do love the fact that the writeup discusses Thaddius's walking animation as being something that was carefully crafted, when if you're seriously seeing his walking animation something is very wrong indeed.
Actually, on our first kill we lost our third hs tank before Patch hit 90% health. He killed 6 dps during the fight (four were rezzed back in) and we still managed to win. I am surprised your average HS is so high. Our average HS is 6500 (6300 for our best tank) out of 300ish strikes. Perhaps you set up your healing differently, but with that many priests and shaman your AC buff should be kept up near 100% of the time. We use low rank spam healing. I think a lot of other guilds are using a three big heals strategy. Which means you probably don't have the AC buff up much. It is really interesting watching HS tank health on this fight for sure with our healing set up. We also use only 3 priests for the MT.
Wow, that's interesting. Part of the problem is that most priests (actually, I think, all of our priests) do not have Inspiration because every shaman has Ancestral Fortitude (identical talent) and in most situations there are enough shamans to keep it up on the MT or MTs. Patchwerk is unique in that you have multiple tanks taking that sort of damage at once. Also a problem is that shaman mana efficiency on heals really just isn't that great. I have a near-optimal set (obviously pre-Naxx) and I don't think I could go a whole fight casting big heals of the sort needed to top off offtanks after HS, so we end up stacking most of our shamans on the MT where incoming damage is very flat and can be healed by an endless rotation of small efficient heals (mid-rank Healing Wave + Healing Way + Amplify, great efficiency). I need to reconsider how we set that up, however.
As for losing people and still killing him, I'm impressed. Our first kill we lost our first OT at like 15% and it ended up getting horribly sloppy in the last 5% as we burned him down. Last week we had no deaths. But if we lose an OT early, let alone more than one, I assume it's a wipe and we start over. Hmm....
Salvation... yes, I think it is important, though I firmly believe most fights it isn't needed. But lets just say that the fights Muraevin survived he was ~20% higher dps than the others. However, he was using HS basically every single hit. So, the other warriors probably did not need salvation (he is our only dual wield fury warrior). The rogues certainly didn't need salvation, the mages certainly didn't need salvation. etc etc. But yes, mura would not be able to dominate the DPS chart without salvation. No way he could use HS as much as he does. But that is a high aggro ability.
If I remember correctly our top two damage dealers were 380k a piece and were warriors. Rogues were 350k. Mages 320k. Warlocks 200k. Hunters 180k. My bet is that Muraevin would have made 450k though.
Hmm, we had fury warriors who were having to spend periods of time just autoattacking to avoid pulling aggro, and that's without ever using HS. We had one death early on in the fight (~75%) when a fire mage was between 110% and 130% of the MT's aggro (not enough to pull aggro at range) and got splattered when he stepped into melee range on a transition. The people at the very top were DPS classes who had a Fetish of the Sand Reaver, and rogues who could vanish part way in. It was very much an aggro-capped situation for us, since if the whole raid is doing 270%-280% normal damage, they're generating 270%-280% normal threat, but a tank's "bonus hate" on abilities isn't similarly multiplied, so he really has to struggle to keep up. A lot of DPS died until they learned their limits on this fight. (And no, our tank doesn't suck at generating threat -- usually he's basically impossible to pull aggro on, but the numbers in this fight are harsh.)
Maybe Thunderyfury vs Chul'ko'rush (Tehax I'd imagine) or something? Tank weapons have a huge impact on threat generation in my time playing, and Thunderfury is the best of them out there.
And yeah, when we killed Thaddius last night he berserked at 1% and obliterated our "negative" group and then the "positive" group burned him down before he could get off another chain lightning. Our DMs were a mix of mages and rogues, with fury warriors mixed in, though they were having to hold back a lot due to aggro concerns (WTB BoS -- having to choose whether to give your group aggro reduction or 60 NR is a pain). Our fury warrior who has a Fetish of the Sand Reaver to pop early and then again at 20% was #1 on DMs by a decent margin, and he mainhands a damn Deathbringer (needs less Eye of Diminution and more Thaddius mace). With the lightning damage going around, and the resulting rage supply, fury warriors are absolutely nasty on that fight.
Have you considered something like a Soulstone aggrowipe?
The great thing about horde warriors is that WF/Str is better than Kings/Might, and it really shines on nonaggro fights. If only they changed Tranquil Air into a Calm Water totem.......
It was very much an aggro-capped situation for us, since if the whole raid is doing 270%-280% normal damage, they're generating 270%-280% normal threat, but a tank's "bonus hate" on abilities isn't similarly multiplied, so he really has to struggle to keep up. A lot of DPS died until they learned their limits on this fight. (And no, our tank doesn't suck at generating threat -- usually he's basically impossible to pull aggro on, but the numbers in this fight are harsh.)
I must be overestimating the amount of threat an HS generates on a fury warrior every 2 seconds. Especially in a fight where all dps number are x3.
Itzlegend uses Quel'Serrar still to tank with as far as I know, I don't think he has the weapon off of Faerlina yet. We have only ever had one binding drop and that was the first MC raid we did after returning from EQ2.
I must be overestimating the amount of threat an HS generates on a fury warrior every 2 seconds. Especially in a fight where all dps number are x3.
The bonus threat from HS (rank 9) is 175. So, done every 2 seconds, that would be the equivalent of 87.5 DPS worth of bonus hate. In a situation where you're already doing over 1200 DPS sustained, that really isn't that much.
(Of course, as noted, when you're a tank relying on 355 hate from Revenge, 175 from HS, 260 from Sunder, and 250 from Shield Slam -- before defensive stance and defiance are factored in -- generating enough threat to stay ahead of DPS classes that are doing four-digit DPS is a serious concern.)
That would have comical results on Thaddius -- you'll see when you get there
Yup, really really hard to rez on this fight. And impossible to soulstone/ankh. Though it will probably get fixed. (you will see why when you win!)
Sounds like CQ saves a BR for muraevin, I wonder how many warlocks they bring to Naxx...
A what? Just the standard three. Their dps just doesn't match up. Though I have been playing with ideas on how to increase warlock dps significantly. (shadow priest, etc)
By BR I meant Battle Res, sorry for the confusion. I think there is at least one other post in here dealing w/ the issue of warlock DPS a la patch 1.11.
Basically gets into how, even with shadow-weaving, it's really not worth bringing warlocks over and above two to three (depending on whether you want CoR+CoE plus CoT or not). Then again, there are a number of bosses where you definitely do *not* want CoR, so you're back down to two warlocks as a min/max situation.
In any case, I'd love to go back to that post and point out some particularly good posts, but I've got about an hour left at work, and have a bunch of stuff to do :) I'll see if I can find some gems when I head home this evening.
Interesting. We play it much more conservatively. I'd bring 17 healers to Patchwerk every week given a choice (6 priests 6 shamans 5 druids). I'm pretty sure we had 17 this past week, and we killed him in 6:40 or so. The extra healers give us a lot more stability on the fight. We've never had anything resembling DPS issues, whereas healing has very much been a problem (average HS of ~7200 on tanks with <10k hp sucks a lot). We'll never wipe due to lack of DPS. We only wipe due to lack of healing. A 6:20 pace instead of a 6:40 pace means nothing if you lose an offtank 3 minutes in or start running OOM 5 minutes in.
And yeah, when we killed Thaddius last night he berserked at 1% and obliterated our "negative" group and then the "positive" group burned him down before he could get off another chain lightning. Our DMs were a mix of mages and rogues, with fury warriors mixed in, though they were having to hold back a lot due to aggro concerns (WTB BoS -- having to choose whether to give your group aggro reduction or 60 NR is a pain). Our fury warrior who has a Fetish of the Sand Reaver to pop early and then again at 20% was #1 on DMs by a decent margin, and he mainhands a damn Deathbringer (needs less Eye of Diminution and more Thaddius mace). With the lightning damage going around, and the resulting rage supply, fury warriors are absolutely nasty on that fight.
And yes, hunters lagged somewhat behind, partly due to positioning issues that left them with a slightly lower multiplier than most other DPS.
Hunters lag behind because you have us use Aspect of the Wild :P. That's a very very big DPS downgrade for a 5/31/15 build(we're not just losing 144 AP, we're also losing 5 talent points). When I was using Deviates, I was keeping a 17-19 stack pretty much the entire fight due to my smaller model(as opposed to 15-17 without). In addiition, using aspect of the wild means we don't have a shaman. You'll notice Gonktarget was #1 in Hunter DPS, as he was the only one with a shaman. Not that I disagree with this strategy-wise, but that's why hunter DPS was low, not positioning.
If you aren't a goblin, why not?
If you are a goblin you rule
You'll notice Gonktarget was #1 in Hunter DPS, as he was the only one with a shaman.
Gonktarget was in my group. However, I had dropped Mana Spring Totem only and forgot to refresh Grace of Air Totem often because I was too worried about healing, maintaining my mana supply, and positioning.
It was very much an aggro-capped situation for us, since if the whole raid is doing 270%-280% normal damage, they're generating 270%-280% normal threat, but a tank's "bonus hate" on abilities isn't similarly multiplied, so he really has to struggle to keep up. A lot of DPS died until they learned their limits on this fight. (And no, our tank doesn't suck at generating threat -- usually he's basically impossible to pull aggro on, but the numbers in this fight are harsh.)
Is this a situation where it may be worth pulling out the bear?
Haven't seen the Thaddius fight as of yet, but since Bear agro is largely based on damage, if they're doing 270-280% normal damage, they'd be doing 270-280% normal threat, and hence able to outpace the dps far more easily than a warrior on this fight? (presuming you have a druid spec'd with the appropriate threat talents)
The top mage is fire. The top rogue was me. Scanned my bs crits and they clocked in at ~72.4 so I was a bit on the lucky side. I believe I had 35.xx crit displayed in char sheet.
As far as gear, it's an embarassing combination of a handful of things. DKP vagrities have allowed me to pickup "rot" so I've grabbed every item I can that sounded full raid buff powerful. It's DD w/ ZG enchants (run spd on boots, 100hp on chest), exec bracers (str), prestor's, cloak of conc hatred (resists), seal of the dawn, dft, rev'd brood ring, master dragonslayer's, belt of never ending agony, and... Circlet of Restless Dreams (ZG enchanted), ACL (agl), Harb MH (agl) / CHT OH (agl).
Full raid buffs, smoked desert dumplings, firewater, 2x consc stones, juju power, mongoose (hope I'm not forgetting anything).
The rogue in 2nd is along the same lines w/ the following exceptions - DD helm, Rag cloak, Qiraj +atk ring (not brood), BF bracer, Pugio MH / CHT OH.
I list this in some detail to point out a couple of things. I haven't the time now to rescan, but I don't see too many meters w/ individuals breaking above 600. Seem to recall a mage w/ just over 700, though, but as been said if he was creditted with rolling ignites, it's not entirely valid, correct? Flipside I guess even through the 7m PW fight, rogues can have skewed bs crit rates. Mages are kicking ass, as well they should, but these meters are both encouraging as well as give me pause for thought.
The consumables used vs what I have strenuously looted to the best of my judgement vs... a naxx trash drop in my MH. While I have a DS to look forward to sometime in the future (as well as copious boss fights where my value as a DPS'r is severely limited), do mages have a similar amount of "future" obtainable gear overhead to really threaten the rogue's position in a fight of this nature? And on and on, it's too late in the night.
07/10/06, 6:04 PM
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