Sustained DPS - Page 3

Gauss · 07/02/06, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by PapaShlapa

I don't know what patchwerk DMs you were looking at G-man, but every patchwerk attempt I've been at has been every mage at the top, then all the rogues, then I don't remember. Would be 3 fire mages, then frost mages, then a combat fists GM rogue, then combat daggers, then the rest of the rogues. I also found our 17/31/3 mages to be doing the most DPS by a LARGE margin, sustaining 700ish dps. Myself, Gauss and Tiresias being about double the highest rogue. Gogo mages I guess.

Damagemeters get pretty skewed when we all pop combustion and someone inevitably gets credit for the 3k ignites that stay up forever :p. I haven't really kept tabs on my DPS per se though, but I'm pretty sure 588 dps is about the most I could do flasked.

inveratulo · 07/02/06, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dolohov

I had meant to ask Gurg about the warlocks in his raid, but I see it's already been brought up, at least indirectly.

What I want to say is that the DPS potential of warlocks is squandered by most guilds. It's for a silly reason too: they don't take advantage of a dedicated shadow priest, instead insisting that all priests in the raid should merely be healbots.

Given a raid with just one shadow priest and a bunch of warlocks with high crit% and the (recently buffed) Improved Shadow Bolt talent, warlocks can get a near-constant +45% bonus to their shadow damage from debuffs alone (CoS + Improved Shadow Bolt + 5/5 Shadow Weaving). Stick the priest and your warlocks in a group together, and the warlocks can pretty much DPS all out indefinitely, due to Vampiric Embrace and Life Tap. Furthermore, as the debuff prioritization system matures, warlock DoTs will become a significant component of their DPS, rather than getting knocked off after 2 ticks like they have in the past.

We're talking serious DPS here, folks. Damage meter topping DPS. Give your warlocks a shadow priest. They'll love you for it. :)

This sounds great except that there are too many points of failure and its asking too much of the raid to set aside debuff slots that affect only one class. All the standard melee dps requires is Goa/wf/sunder and they are happy sustaining a very respectable dps rate.

♦ Praetorian · 07/02/06, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dolohov

I had meant to ask Gurg about the warlocks in his raid, but I see it's already been brought up, at least indirectly.

What I want to say is that the DPS potential of warlocks is squandered by most guilds. It's for a silly reason too: they don't take advantage of a dedicated shadow priest, instead insisting that all priests in the raid should merely be healbots.

Given a raid with just one shadow priest and a bunch of warlocks with high crit% and the (recently buffed) Improved Shadow Bolt talent, warlocks can get a near-constant +45% bonus to their shadow damage from debuffs alone (CoS + Improved Shadow Bolt + 5/5 Shadow Weaving). Stick the priest and your warlocks in a group together, and the warlocks can pretty much DPS all out indefinitely, due to Vampiric Embrace and Life Tap. Furthermore, as the debuff prioritization system matures, warlock DoTs will become a significant component of their DPS, rather than getting knocked off after 2 ticks like they have in the past.

We're talking serious DPS here, folks. Damage meter topping DPS. Give your warlocks a shadow priest. They'll love you for it. :)

I could tell you were alliance before I clicked on your sig.

Dolohov · 07/02/06, 6:08 PM

It's more difficult for Horde warlocks, I won't deny that. However, full Nemesis and MD imp should give them the aggro reduction they need.

PapaShlapa · 07/02/06, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gauss

Originally Posted by PapaShlapa

I don't know what patchwerk DMs you were looking at G-man, but every patchwerk attempt I've been at has been every mage at the top, then all the rogues, then I don't remember. Would be 3 fire mages, then frost mages, then a combat fists GM rogue, then combat daggers, then the rest of the rogues. I also found our 17/31/3 mages to be doing the most DPS by a LARGE margin, sustaining 700ish dps. Myself, Gauss and Tiresias being about double the highest rogue. Gogo mages I guess.

Damagemeters get pretty skewed when we all pop combustion and someone inevitably gets credit for the 3k ignites that stay up forever :p. I haven't really kept tabs on my DPS per se though, but I'm pretty sure 588 dps is about the most I could do flasked.

The base DPS for my fireball, unbuffed, with no debuffs on the target is like 590. Fully potion buffed, with coe/imp scorch I'll easily do 750+

Blam · 07/02/06, 6:12 PM

I think their point is that the shadow priest would run out of mana without paladins.

Maledict · 07/02/06, 6:13 PM

It's not aggro reduction that hurts our warlocks.

It's mana. Vast amounts of mana.

Warlocks lose so much time lifetapping, even using potions & runes, that they can't beat mages & rogues on dps. In Alliance guilds, Warlocks get a *lot* more mana - both from BoW, and from JoW. Horde warlocks generally dont get Mana Spring because we don;t raid with 8 shaman. That makes a massive difference to their DPs on a 5 mintue fight.

Felippe · 07/02/06, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dolohov

It's more difficult for Horde warlocks, I won't deny that. However, full Nemesis and MD imp should give them the aggro reduction they need.

Full Nemesis and MD Imp will straight up lower your damage by 25%, and that's without counting the damage lost from using poorly itemized gear like Nemesis Gloves (which, all said and done, isn't a whole lot but still)

♦ Praetorian · 07/02/06, 6:16 PM

Yes, my point was that BoW/JoW are what make shadow priests viable. If EJ were Alliance, we'd absolutely have a dedicated shadowmage priest, but every indication I've seen is that a Horde shadow priest goes OOM far, far too soon.

Dolohov · 07/02/06, 6:23 PM

I see your point.

Still, even if Horde are missing out on the benefits of Vampiric Embrace, their Warlocks can make good use of Shadow Weaving, which can be applied for very little mana using rank one spells. But perhaps it's not worth it to have a Horde priest put 25 points into Shadow, but not be able to do any real shadow damage for fear of going OOM, and instead have to fall back to healbotting when not throwing up a weaksauce SW:P. *shrug*

Hamoshin · 07/02/06, 6:43 PM

You also have to factor in the spot in the raid the Shadow Priest takes up. Yes, he will have his own damage and yes, he will add to the damage of your warlocks, but from this total you need to subtract the damage that another class could do if put into that spot... say, a mage or a rogue. If you get a negative number, it's not worth it.

• Snowy · 07/02/06, 7:01 PM

I believe the consensus was established a long time ago that if you're min/maxing a raid, a shadow priest is not even remotely viable... was just more curious if one had been employed there to explain the warlock being at the top.

A couple of PI's would do the trick...

• Hamlet · 07/02/06, 7:25 PM

Am I to infer from the OP that, even with the extent of EJ's gear/buffs, and more importantly your defining focus on good strategy, you came within 124 DPS of failing?

Hamoshin · 07/02/06, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Am I to infer from the OP that, even with the extent of EJ's gear/buffs, and more importantly your defining focus on good strategy, you came within 124 DPS of failing?

I've seen Patchwerk killed in about 4-5 different videos, and not one guild downed him before the 5 minute(?) enrage. I'm sure all of them had amazing gear, full buffs, and great strategies at well.

Imo that leads to a couple conclusions:

:: Either Blizzard does not expect guilds to be able to kill Patch before enrage at this point in time, or they do but the timer is too short.
:: Regardless, it's possible to survive for a decent amount of time while Patch is enraged.

Dolohov · 07/02/06, 7:28 PM

[Snowy]
> if you're min/maxing a raid, a shadow priest is not even remotely viable

That conclusion may no longer hold, depending on when the assessment was made. Curse of Shadows didn't always offer +10% shadow dmg to the whole raid. Improved Shadowbolt used to be consumed by periodic damage, making it a far weaker talent. The point is that shadow priests are getting the same +45% damage bonus as warlocks are, so a well-geared priest (in full Orcacle, perhaps) should be capable of some very respectable DPS, if only his mana holds out.

Zagzil · 07/02/06, 7:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hamoshin

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Am I to infer from the OP that, even with the extent of EJ's gear/buffs, and more importantly your defining focus on good strategy, you came within 124 DPS of failing?

I've seen Patchwerk killed in about 4-5 different videos, and not one guild downed him before the 5 minute(?) enrage. I'm sure all of them had amazing gear, full buffs, and great strategies at well.

Imo that leads to a couple conclusions:

:: Either Blizzard does not expect guilds to be able to kill Patch before enrage at this point in time, or they do but the timer is too short.
:: Regardless, it's possible to survive for a decent amount of time while Patch is enraged.

He has 2 different enrages, and both have different qualifications. One is % based, one is time based.

Shik · 07/02/06, 8:14 PM

Replying to someone before, there is NO buff priority system in the game for Player buffs. We learned that the hard way when I lost the flask and zanza buffs when we we learning Chromaggus, its just a queue, oldest buff gets pushed off first.... which sucks for flasks.

They really need to do something about it though. Its become second nature to click off any buff I don't need because of it before a major fight.

diospadre · 07/02/06, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by Shik

We learned that the hard way when I lost the flask and zanza buffs when we we learning Chromaggus, its just a queue, oldest buff gets pushed off first.... which sucks for flasks.

Not necesarily. While I was OT'ing Patch on Friday I would shout and the buff would never apply itself.

Mortuseques · 07/02/06, 9:43 PM

Holas EJ and other posters..

being a huge dmg whore, i argue with my guild day and night about the value of dps shaman...

alot of people think shaman should just be mana tide/ priest in mail

i think we should take advantage of thier versitility, while still healing when they need to heal...

anyways do u guys use dmg shaman in naxx? in a "do dmg till u have to heal" type roll?

im a warrior BTW this isnt some shaman crying who wants to be enhancement spec and they wont let me! ;)

♦ Maniq · 07/02/06, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mortuseques

Holas EJ and other posters..

being a huge dmg whore, i argue with my guild day and night about the value of dps shaman...

alot of people think shaman should just be mana tide/ priest in mail

i think we should take advantage of thier versitility, while still healing when they need to heal...

anyways do u guys use dmg shaman in naxx? in a "do dmg till u have to heal" type roll?

im a warrior BTW this isnt some shaman crying who wants to be enhancement spec and they wont let me! ;)

No, we're good shaman.

Falcon24 · 07/02/06, 9:51 PM

Ohhhhhhhh boy

Moos3d · 07/02/06, 10:08 PM

On the topic of damage meters, you guys don't use SW Stats? I guess on Patchwerk it wouldn't make much of a difference but a good portion of the people in my guild switched over to SW Stats once it came out. I can't even remember the last time I've seen a damage meter sync that hasn't been for SW Stats.

♦ Praetorian · 07/02/06, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Moos3d

On the topic of damage meters, you guys don't use SW Stats? I guess on Patchwerk it wouldn't make much of a difference but a good portion of the people in my guild switched over to SW Stats once it came out. I can't even remember the last time I've seen a damage meter sync that hasn't been for SW Stats.

What's so good about SWStats? DM v5.0 tells me everything I'd possibly want to know, really.

♦ Praetorian · 07/02/06, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Hamoshin

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Am I to infer from the OP that, even with the extent of EJ's gear/buffs, and more importantly your defining focus on good strategy, you came within 124 DPS of failing?

I've seen Patchwerk killed in about 4-5 different videos, and not one guild downed him before the 5 minute(?) enrage. I'm sure all of them had amazing gear, full buffs, and great strategies at well.

Imo that leads to a couple conclusions:

:: Either Blizzard does not expect guilds to be able to kill Patch before enrage at this point in time, or they do but the timer is too short.
:: Regardless, it's possible to survive for a decent amount of time while Patch is enraged.

Yeah, Zagzil nailed it. We had a full minute to spare on the time-based enrage in our kill. But he always enrages at a certain health % (as his health ticks from 5% to 4%, so at 200k hp remaining). It's quite obvious if you watch a couple of videos.

Kalmiroth · 07/02/06, 11:01 PM

Fire mage can dps a lot of more than frostie can do, frosties just can continue it forever. Never seen Patchwerk and dunnos if I do, but even with my pretty average gear (~600dmg 6%hit 6% crit) I can push over 550dps barrier easily. When locks dont scratch their balls and imp. scorch is up, i guess that I could push over 650 flasked and fully buffed. PI's and innervates: jesus christ.