Correna

Hello, long time troller, first time poster.

Posted to the WoW Warlock forums, however, Im sure Im going to get a lot more solid feedback here then there. That being said, here ya go!

So, one of the biggest attention grabbers on the forums tend to revolve around class changes, more specifically to talent trees and how they change.

This is a good thing. Folks get involved, and give some generlly useful feedback. There are, of course, the typical "OMG (praise/hate)" posts forom other classes, screaming "nerf" and "overpowerd", and "lrn2play". I dont doubt for a moment that this post will get a few of those. Such is the life of forums, no?

Warlocks are broken.

I say this as one of the top DPS'ers in my guild, and a respected PvP'er in my realm. But, we are.

As I see it, we have only a few options come endgame. We can either be glass cannons, meting out a formidable amount of damage, or we can be a damage support role in raids/pvp. I am the former.

I have been many different specs. Ive been conflag. Ive been SL. Im am currently sm/ruin.

Now, to in a sort tie all this into something of cohesion. Warlocks are quickly becoming less and less vaulabe to endgame. While I hear the occasional rumor of warlocks being the end all, be all, I dont see it. More often then not, I hear of warlocks being taken along simply for CoE and SS's. That bringing along more then 3 locks on a raid severly limits what your raid can do, or the speed in which they can do it. And this irks me.

I love the warlock as a class. It was my first class, and Ive been playing it since the talent review of so long ago. Ive tried priests, rogues, hunters, mages, shamans, pallys and a druid. Nothing quite seems to be the right mix, and I always find myself saying "if I was on my warlock...".

Rogues are going to get quite the talent review if what is being said is implimented. And good for them, they are supposed to be "Teh UBAR DPS". But what does that mean to us? One less spot in a raid. How about druids getting a former 31 point talent for free, and on top of that getting swiftmend, an ability that easily makes them rival priests in terms of healing? How about frost mages getting their own version or shadow weaving? Priests getting quite the buff with their talent review? Pallies being able to focus their trees to a fine edge, be it the dreaded (and often mocked) "critadin" or a priest in plate? Shamans also got something of a similar tree refinement. What have we gotten recently? Death coil becoming a useful spell, and then a rather quick semi-nerf to fear.

Warlocks are in need of something. A new breath of vitality, and a focus among our own trees.

Affliction: (level)
This is the "leveling" tree, according to a blue's post. Its not that bad for this purpose really. It has mild functionality for raiding and for PvP, with CoEx, imp lifetap, Siphon, supression, imp corruption and SM. There are other excellent talents that tie it together pretty well, nightfall being a godsend (if it procs at a good moment), and reach giving you a bit of a advantage at range. But why do people spec in affliction for endgame? More often then not for SM. Im not saying there arent some folks that spec it for other reasons, Im saying the vast majority use affliction for SM. Imp drain mana. Honeslty? Doing 150-250 damage over the course of 5 seconds while nabbing a small amount of mana seems pretty weak. Dark pact? Im not impressed, honestly. It seems like a slightly better version of lifetap, and the benefits of DP over lifetap are minor, and only useful in a handful of situations. Why have a near useless 31 point talent? It seems to me that a 31 point talent is one of those things that you should -want-, should lust for, should see where you can sc#@!& points from your precious build to try and get. This one, to me, fails miserably.

Demononlgy: (survive)
Overall, I am fairly impressed with Demonology. It does, however, have its fair share of shortcomings. The thing I dislike most about it is the lower tiers of powers. To me, it just seems that the only things I want are demonic embrace and improved healthstone. Imp succ and imp are nice, sure, but Im not loosing any sleep by not having them. Fel domination is a nice ability to have in a pinch. Fel Stamina? Fairly useless unless you want to go SL. Now look at the tree at this point. Firestone? Imp. Enslave? Unholy power? The only reason I got unholy power was to get Master demonologist. And even then, while I could notice a difference in the melee attacks, it was mostly negligable. Wee, a small boost in pet dps in PvP. SL. DS. This is a awesome ability, but, I for one kinda wish that if Ive spent so many points in demonology, I get to use a -demon-, not be forced into having -25- previous talent points goto waste for a buff that dosent really allow you much leeway or leverage if things go to hell. Sac your imp for +AoE damage at the cost of a decent amount of hp, not only for yourself, but for your party. Sure, you can cast searing pain, or immolate, but... thats it. VW for health is a great option for farming, but once again, your sans a pet. Succ sac is great for doling out DPS. VW sac... well, I dont know too many folks who would waste a shard for a slow mana regen when then can just VW sac and lifetp. I dont have any qualms about MD, its flexable and useful, you can tailor alot of how you want to play with it. Mix it with SL, and its a pretty formidable combinations. SL is a great talent, giving warlocks a lot of leeway in a lot of situations, and the smidgen of +dmg% is a nice benefit. Improved Spellstone... its a nice idea, but I think devs kinda fell short on this one. It has the ability to absorb more spell damage. But, if your so far invested into the demonology tree, spell damage should be the least of your worries more often then not. Now, if the talent also added some spell damage, some crit, and absorbed more spell damage, as well as get bumped down the tree a bit, I bet more folks would use them.

Destruction: (damage)
Overall, I cant really say too much bad about this. My qualms are limited to aftermath, imp firebolt and lash of pain, and general fire aggro for locks. Aftermath gives you a decent chance chance to slow your target down. Eh. It could be nice, but once again, Im not loosing any sleep by not having it. The imp lash and firebolt seem something a bit more aimed towards the demonology tree, in my opinion. As far as aggro goes, we have very few options for spells. Soul Burn, massive fire damage on a timer that requires a shard. Rocken. I love it.Immolate, Cool beans, maybe a bit mana hungry! Conflag (if you spec it)! Similarly cool! Searing pain... ok damage, nice chance to crit, high aggro. We are limited to 3(4 if specced) castable means of fire damage, 2 of which are going to cause a lot of attention in PvE. Give an option to reduce the threat on it perhaps?

Suggestions:
Now, this is where I feel weakest, mostly because I know class balance is a hard thing to sit down and do, and I dont want to make warlocks so blatently overpowered its no fun to play them anymore. Balance issues are one of the things I would have to say I worry most for, so please give helpful feeback, and further suggestions within them.

Affliction:
Move dark pact down the tree, maybe to a step above imp lifetap, perhaps giving it dependancy on having both ranks of imp lifetap. New 31 point "Debilitate" talent increasing the damage of all dots by 50-100% for 30 seconds, make the dots undispellable, and give it a 3-5 minute timer. An afflicion lock that cant have their dots tick are kinda in hot water.

Demonology:
Move SL and Master Demonoligist down 5-10 talent points, and make a -good- summon spell at the 31 point threshold. Summon dreadlord/felguard, something that will be under your control, and wont go hostile after 5 minutes, with the ability to Soul link and have MD attributes, but not DS attributes. Remove DS dependancy upon unholy power, but retain its position within the tree. Firestone add fire resist, and spell stone add +spell dmg, as well as moved down the tree. Mash Unholy power together with imp firebolt and lash of pain, consider adding reduced cooldowns for new summon, and for spell lock/devour magic.

Destruction:
New 2 point talent, dependant on aftermath that gives a 5/10% chance to stun target for 5 seconds instead of daze them. New 2 pont talent that gives 5/10% aggro reduction to destruction spells.

I am open to feedback and constructive criticism, and I know Im going to get some flames for this (Most, I would guess, from the poor mages), but give me ideas, suggestions, and soforth on what you think could be best done to help improve warlocks as a class.

Thank you for taking the time to read that book, and I look forward to your replys.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

The problem with warlocks is that they had a bunch of things changed about them but that was before they really streamlined their "talent review" process. They improved and reworked a good amount of things with them, but never really did the thorough review the other classes got. The most glaring example of this is that they're the only remaining class that has a talent adjacent to the true 31 point talent in the tree, improved spellstone.

It was placed there under their old philosophy. They didn't want you to be able to improve an ability long before you actually got that ability as you were levelling up. This is why improved grace of air was next to stormstrike for the shaman trees.

Likely warlocks will get their "real" rework when the expansion hits and they need to add new talents.

Check out my friend's bitchin' Lord of the Rings Art

 

Correna

I agree, instead of giving us a real talent review, just just got a new coat of paint. Granted, the paint was nice while it was new, now its starting to crack and peel, and were kinda just left hanging. Whos to say they wont do the exact same thing come x-pack?

 

Zaq

The same was true to a degree with the first warrior review, but Blizz has been on top of minor tweaks to warrior trees for a while. (Clear exception being TM garbage.)

That said, lock's are especially hard to balance because what they can and cannot do changes so wildley with spec and pet use. Locks with a felhunter out can abuse caster classes, but with some other pet, it becomes a dramatically different situation.

Raiding wise, I think the biggest problem we have as a class is that debuff priority still hasn't been finished. I still have to yell at hunters for serpent stinging things, and seeing rupture knock off something is cause for anuerisms.

In the end I think warlocks haven't recieved the fine tuning other classes have gradually seen for two reasons. First, warlocks got the initial review, well before the process was streamlined. And second, it's so complex, a warlock can be a glass cannon, a lower dmg output hp monster, debuff spaming kiter to name a few. The complexity and variety is no small part of why the class is so fun, but it also makes it significantly harder to retool.

"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali

 

Chimera2402

Buff Cataclysm to 10-15%, throw in a fire nuke and give us a -threat on all destruction spells and i`ll be happy.

Oh, put something worth while as 31point Affliction while they`re at it.

 

Chiquihuite

Why even bother with dark pact at all? It's quite possibly the WORST talent in the game. It's a 31 point talent that lets you do something you could already do without it half as well. That's like making the 31 point demonology talent allow you to summon healthstones that are half as powerful as your normal ones, but with no mana or soul shard cost.

Anyway, on topic...

1.11 definitely gave mages a lot of headway on warlocks in terms of threat reduction, but I honestly feel like we're not all that bad off. The problem is that Warlocks are the hardest class to play WELL, at least in a raiding environment. It's quite possible to maintain the kind of sustained DPS that a mage is capable of with the talents and gear available, but ONLY in situations where the threat isn't going to be a limiting factor.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that our "review" was a joke, though. So many worthless filler talents, a worthless 31 point talent, and not a single one of the changes we actually asked for. Our endgame pets still suck, and almost nothing was done to make soul shards less of a pain in the ass. We need a bit more threat reduction, and more options for viable talents, but other than that I don't feel we're "falling from grace" by any stretch of the imagination.

"They're Dragon Kill Points; not Dragon Feed Points"

 

Zagzil

As much as I'm inclined to agree that Warlock Talents are kind of a mess, our Damage Meters tell me that warlocks are very far from a gimp class. Maybe we're unique, I don't know, but when a warlock leads a Patchwerk DM by a substantial margin I have to scratch my head at the first part of the post. Yes the talents themselves are not great, but the class isn't a marginalized one, just a rare one.

 

Jayblah

This statement is equally applicable to Hunters, if not moreso than any other post-review class.

 

• Greybone

Dark pact is far, far from a bad talent. It doesn't scale, which is something they should adress, but then again pets don't scale either :)

The absolute insane efficiency you can get from dark pact is the staple of the build. I can't even begin to count the number of times dark pacting for that last bit of mana saved my ass, not to mention how nice it is on new content where you really can't rely on lifetap for mana regen.

Now the real problem we have is ruin - you can't spec for endgame pve without getting ruin, period. And it's one of very few talents we have that scales.

 

Chiquihuite

With healthstones, NDB, potions, and the occasional renew thrown your way, when can you honestly say you can't lifetap for mana regen? The only time I've ever had that problem was when we were first learning firemaw with just over 30 people and there simply weren't heals to spare. I used to raid DP spec and it was just too painstakingly slow compared to lifetap. DP = Gimp DPS. It's a great soloing talent, except for the small matter of DS being superior in that regard, too.

I have to agree with you on ruin though. It's one of the best damage-increasing talents we have available, and pretty much everything leading up to it is indispensible too(Imp SB, Bane, Dest Reach, Devestation). Feels so much different from all the filler talents I picked up to get to DS and MD, or the equally raid-useless filler talents you have to grab if you go SM/Ruin =/

"They're Dragon Kill Points; not Dragon Feed Points"

 

Correna

Its not a bad talent. But a 31 point talent?

Ive tried it, and wasnt really impressed.

 

Flubber

I'd really blame any issues on threat. Warlocks are top DPS on Rag and I've seen a top warlock on patchwerk.
PvP wise, at least my perspective as a resto shaman, I have more problems with a warlock than anything other class. Regardless of gear.

Between sac voidwalker and spell-lock you can really tear up most low-dps healers, and chain fear most melee classes. Dont even mention seduce/shadowbolt spam.

Is your spot in raids somewhat negated by mages...maybe. You can argue that with preists/druids/shamans as well. We did aq40 with 6 warlocks, 3mages and I didnt really notice any changes. Give a threat lowering talent and I think warlocks would be at least as good as mages in a PvE environment.

Just my possibly incorrect opinion as a pure healbot.

 

Branar

I'd like to see warlocks get a threat reduction system that's unique and fresh. I think that'd be cool.

Improved Lifetap reducing hate every time you use it?

Maybe have each of the pets modify the warlock's hate in a different way. The imp casts "minor phase shift" on the warlock, reducing threat dealt for X seconds. The succubus casts Subtlety on the warlock, making his next spell cause no threat. The felhunter causes the warlock's spells to cost X% more mana for Y% less threat. Every time the voidwalker hits the mob, the warlock's threat is reduced.


Honestly, I'd like to see both warlocks AND hunters have a set of abilities for the pets that make them synergize much better on raids. The current warlock just-give-us-the-HPs and the hunter send-it-in-until-it-dies mantras are pretty damn boring. Maybe develop some sort of 'combo' system, where the hunter's pet sets a target up for taking extra damage from shots, stings, or whatever.

 

Correna

Now thats an idea. Link aggro with the pet, for something exactly like you said. A nice synergy between them. pets would finally have a use for PvE. Fresh, and unique. I approve!

 

DiscW

Was he the same one who had a succubus sacrificed and ressed, constant power infusions, and constant heals for lifetapping and demonic runes, in a fight with few aggro problems? I'm not saying the guy isn't damn good, he must be. But that's not a very realistic situation.

The OP had some great suggestions, far better and more realistic then the "shadow AE! Instant Fear!" type stuff thats always on the bnet boards. I like the demon suggestions, the best ones I've heard. That's the tree I've spent the most time with. They definetly need to consolidate the pet and stone talents, and unlink unholy power from MD.

For some fights I actually prefer the felhunter sacrifice. It saves you alot of time that you would normally waste lifetapping, or where lifetapping might not be the best idea.

One major fix they need to do to help warlocks though, is fixing the debuff slot situation.

 

cubicle47b

Zagzil stated in the sustained dps thread that the lock was SM/Ruin. I agree that looking at the performance of a lock spec'd SM/Ruin who has 5/5 Doomcaller (the set bonus is 15% less mana per shadowbolt) and is getting constant power infusions and healing (so he can lifetap without bandaging) on a fight where aggro isn't an issue isn't the best way to judge the warlock class.

 

Mosh

A straight up copy of the Mage review would be a-ok with me:

-6% aggro caused with Shadow spells for each pt in Shadow Mastery, on top of the 2% damage
-6% aggro caused with Fire spells for each pt in Emberstorm, on top of the 2% damage
Suppresion works on all Warlock abilities, now a three pt talent for 2/4/6%
Base chance to not be interrupted while hellfiring set to 50%. Intensity now adds 25% per pt for a total of 50%, or 100% total, making Warlocks viable as a 5 man AoE class.
Lower manacost on Shadow Bolt across the board, possibly paired with a slight buff to Cataclysm (although Imp SB is incredibly good atm., so they'd have a hard time making Cataclysm better without breaking something).

 

• Greybone

Pvp for once, almost all cutting edge content when you need to survive a lot of damage? PvE grinding when it's just a billion times more efficient?
It's not like you're using it in bwl or other old content where the healers have 10 times the mana regen they need, but you won't find a better talent for pve grinding and pvp and new content sustainability.

 

Arkhan

I tried posting something very similar to this on the Blizzard forums once, but it got buried under a deluge of "ZOMGNERFDEATHCOIL" posts (not that I was surprised).

I like the idea of linking threat to our pets. We definitely need a thorough talent review, but considering blizzard has already stated they don't intend to do full-fledged reviews again, I don't see how that'll happen. Hopefully once they're done with rogues, they'll take a closer look at us and carefully tweak the class over a few patches.

Once upon a time, nobody saw a reason for non-innervate druids to raid (except EJ, damn you feral-happy bastards). Now, nobody sees a reason to take more than 2-3 warlocks to a raid. Our primary purpose is to buff other class's dps. Beyond that, anything we can do a mage can do just as well, and with less threat. Looking at fights where aggro isn't an issue is far from the best way to judge our class.

Oh, and its always bothered me that we get aftermath, a talent most people don't bother with. Mages get the far more useful version: impact.

http://wow.tachyonsix.com.nyud.net:8...28927lvlzz.png

 

Zagzil

No he didn't use the Succubus buff at all, and I wouldn't call a few renews through the fight "constant heals." Certainly max consumables though, yes.

 

DiscW

Fair enough then. I found the video of your kill, and he definetly wasn't getting constant heals.

At least there have been a few constructive blue posts on the warlock forums. So there's a bit of hope.

 

Correna

Yeah, I posted this on the lock forums. And, lo and behind, it was bumped under the incubus vs. sucubus post. Was kinda hoping for a blue responce, but, if you hope for it, it wont happen.

Mosh-
I dont really want to have another blanket fix for us. I want to have some of the issues addressed with the shortcomings of Demonolgy and affliction. We -do- need aggro reducing talents, thats for sure. And I like the idea of global supression (resist? HA!).

 

Hangman

I am pretty satisfied with warlock in pvp. Its pve that concerns me and that i have to put a lot of skill to deal real damage is annoying. Right now besides cos/coe/cor warlock dont do any other debuffs and if i dont deal damage i have no other use in the raids. Please dont start with "giving out HS SS and blood pact" shit.
I will get right to the point.
Look at warlock spells , look at the mana cost , now look at the warlock items and the ammount of intelect on them. This game is raid or quit lets be honest. How many ppl out there spend more time on other things than running instances. So you have to be viable for party/raid. Most warlocks are highly "unskilled" and dont know jack about how warlock should do damage. But at the same time those locks are at the same level of skill as some mage who is constantly top3 in dmg but thing is that the mage need to know alot less to deal this kind of dmg.
What can blizzard do is to make it easier for locks to deal dmg without making the ones that know "how to" overpowered which wont hurt alot , not many like this out there! The problem is that they think warlock damage in raids comes from dots...

The real problem.

IT IS NOT AGGRO. If your tanks cant hold your aggro on non aggro reducing mobs you really need to find better tanks or to tell them to stop slacking.
Example:
Tanks shoot mob with his bow. Me : cos(before it even reached the tank) , corr(not always depends),start casting shadowbolt. By the time SB is casted(2,5sec) and hit the target(1sec+ if 30yards) the tank have more than enough time to start his aggro building. And i suppose you dont cast at mele range so you have to make 30% more than his aggro to become the mob's target.
combat log is smth like that : 1389 1402 1375 2875 1568 1580. And it never comes for me(zomg i have subtlety on cloak). And that is the worst possible scenario where you start to nuke asap. Usually i cos/coe other target(s) and put corr.
However if they do add some talent for aggro reduce in reasonable place in some of the trees that would be just a bonus not a big fix.
IT IS DPM.
Your main source of damage in raids is SHADOW BOLT. which costs 380 mana :((. Dont start - i never run out of mana because i have lifetap. Because that lifetaping alot will put you in some mediocore dps spot in your raid because the warlock is designed to do more even if blizzard unintetionaly designed it.
Unlike mage's astonishing DPM our's SUCK BAD and in raids DPM is all that matters i really mean all. You can be way on top of dmg before you run oom but that doesnt count. Being on top after you kill the boss is what counts.
How to improve DPM of shadowbolt(main source of dmg)
-shadow mastery - taking it from 1,34 to 1,47 *not bad but that leaves you with only one option - sm/ruin
-cataclysm - making it form 1,34 to 1,41 *yet many noobs underestimate that talent
-ds - best raiding talent ever. it even makes logical sense. at raids your pet is not used(beseides bloody bloodpact:) ) so you sacrifice them to gain bonuses , perfect.
What i would like to see changed.
-just simply lower shadowbolt mana cost by 5% on all ranks
-make corruption instant cast by default and change tha talent to whatever you like
-buff cataclysm
-add enchants for lowering mana cost to certain spells or smth like this - you want to raid you put his enchant. Would be easier than 50g for pve,pvp build

I said warlocks can dish out huge damage , well yes they can. A lot more than you suspected.
Things that many unskilled warlocks dont know or ignore :
-if you a mob is going to life 18sec+ than this means you have instant cast nuke 822dmg with 18sec cooldown.I am speaking for corruption without sm and mind it takes 100% from dmg gear. And ofc you have to know which mob will live 18sec and if that mobs is fearing or stunning the MT because if it do , it will come for you ...dont juse any other spell than sb and corr (may be immo sometimes) for doing dmg ... that right here requires a somewhat a skill of knowing additional info and stuff. BEcause i know mages who can not tell you any skill or ANYTHING AT ALL for some boss in BWL. Those mages are in guilds like omg EU first spider wing cleared and omg EU first gluth killed. Me : dude who is taunting and taking the wing buffet . The mage : wing what ? . Me : you know the thing he does to the MT and lower his aggro , the OT taunt right before it does it , so it reduces his aggro. The mage : i dont know i just hide here fireward , frostboltx5, hide again. And this isnt the firs time i see total inconpetence from some dps classes is really good guilds. And this right here is where i am annoyed that there is a small chances that this guy(a mage in general) would be doing better job than me(damage) although he isnt most of the time.
.... ok i will stop the post right here .. i went offtopic and i am sleepy but i will post it anyway :P ....

inshort , spec 7/21/23
5/5imp.bolt 5/5bane 5/5cataclysm 5/5devastation 1/1shadowburn 1/2destructive reach rest talent are the usual places on trash sacrifice sucubus , on bosses sacrifice fel hunter(trust me*)
and get 5/5doomcaller (imba bonus)

*with my mana pool i can fire 15bolts and if i do it with sacrified sucubus it would've been as if i fired 17,25bolts but with sacrificed felhunter i could fire 20bolts. end of story.
show those rogues and mages who is the real damage dealer !!!!

p.s. these are very nice forums i will keep an eye of them. :))

p.p.s to put some credibility on my words i will say that i am top dmg dealer in my guild which cleared aq40 2months ago and so far we downed 5 bosses in naxx( the typical which most naxx guilds downed - spider wing , razivous , noth).

p.p.p.s i am horde , very seldom with shaman in group and still dont think aggro is an issue

 

• squiffy

You know, tanks can, and do miss, get blocked, parried, and dodged.

Sometimes IT'S NOT THE TANKS FAULT!

 

Hangman

crossbow of imminent doom , mark of cthun , even nozdormu mele dps ring
thats if the tanks know what to wear and are not OMG 8/8 WRATH ones
p.s. tbh i am happy that blizzard fiannyl realised this( better late than never) and started putting +hit on tanking gear(look tier3 and other naxx tanking gear)