Dark Pact is actually limited not by pet _mana_ but by pet _mana regeneration_. What would make a drain-from-pet spell powerful is the fact that imps have high spirit and follow mob spirit regeneration rules, which would effectively have warlocks follow mob spirit regeneration rules. This would be overpowered and broken.

While I would welcome Lifetap scaling with +Dmg, it is a dangerous solution because it would allow Warlocks to benefit twice from +Dmg gear. (DPS would increase through pure damage, as well as increase DPS through lower downtime). I like the idea of a new version of Lifetap (perhaps as a raid drop off Nefarian) that acts as a self-dot. The change satisfies a number of criteria: It doesn't make Warlocks any more mana efficient, it doesn't significantly affect PvP balance, and it retains the Healer Mana -> Warlock Mana -> Warlock damage dynamic that changes to Dark Pact would remove.

Alternatively, Blizzard can completely do away with the idea of Warlocks as a DPS class and reinforce our role as debuffers. With our current curse palette only CoE and CoR (CoT on rare occasions) are usually cast on a raid mob. Note that with the exception of CoT none of the curses are really 'debuffs'. The end result is to increase raid DPS, not debilitate the target. Winter's Chill and Fire Vulnerability are similar effects. In comparison, abilities like Thunderclap, Demoralizing Shout, and Insect Swarm are true debuffs that completely eclipse the Warlock Curse of Weakness.

this thread is definitely a good read. much more useful than browsing through the official wow forums.

some of the ideas from this thread that i approve of:

1) more involved role as a debuffer: not just casting curses more often. this needs to involve strategy based on the encounter, timing with other warlocks, etc.

2) use of stamina in pve: quote from previous page or two: "idea of creating magical effects directly from the warlock health bar seems very in-character to me." I strongly agree with this. the gear from instances has increasing stamina on it. pve gear is supposed to benefit pve. something along the lines of spells that cost health instead of mana, lifetap efficiency based on current amount of stamina, or curses that allow us to feed health to others. I brought up on the wow warlock forums that stamina is useless in pve beyond a certain amount and most disagreed, which I can't understand. also, another idea that i had was that excess health automatically feeds into mana at some ratio (same mana:hp ratio as lifetap i guess). This would eliminate the need to lifetap for each tick of HoTs. If healers see you low on mana, they heal you and you get mana if your health is full. This brings me to another point. It is frusterating to me that healers have no way to tell if you are lifetapping or are taking damage. This should be addressed. Heals automatically converted to mana would help, but if you still had lifetap then it would still be an issue.



One thing I disagree with is the idea that the talent trees should be designed so that some warlocks could choose to emphasize their debuffing and others could emphasize their dps. Doesn't really make sense to me considering no other classes have dual roles based on their talent trees. If your debuffers don't show up for a raid, then would the other warlocks have to respec? This is sort of similar to how warlocks that are needed to give blood pact to tanks are limited to SM/Ruin as their best raiding spec. If you're SM/Ruin lock doesn't show, you are losing the effectiveness of most your talent spec, or in other words, If you're DS specced and you get stuck with imp your SOL. Blood pact should just be a trainable group buff for the warlock independent of talent spec and pet (or lack of pet). In summary, a raid should benefit from warlocks with differing specs, but not completely rely on it.

Warlocks are a great class in pvp, but a class without true need to PvE besides 2 curses. This is because in PvP none of the PvE problems such as mana efficiency/regen, threat, and debuff slots become apparent. Also, our high stamina makes us very potent in pvp, but our low int makes us weak in PvE. This ties back to the point I made that stamina should increase pve usefulness somehow.

And to finish I would like to point out two strange things with the warlock class. First, the class is designed as a DoT utilizing class, yet we out burst dmg mages (or keep up with them at least), but as the fight gets longer we put out less damage than mages. Shouldn't it be the complete opposite? As in, shouldn't mages be high in dps at the start of the fight, but warlocks catch up with them as the fight gets longer because of DoTs?
The other strange thing deals with set bonuses. Felheart 8/8 is 15% mana reduction on shadow spells. Doomcaller 5/5 is 15% mana reduction on shadowbolt. Plagueheart 8/9 is 12% reduction in health cost of lifetap. Doomcaller 5/5 and plagueheart 8/9 are specific cases of the felheart 8/8 bonuses. Just plain bad design imo.

I'm sure blizzard will do something to try to address the main issues, but it will either bring us closer or futher to being mages.

That would make us basically healer-leeching mages, and I don't want to see that kind of change. Give me a 31-point (or heck, 41-point) Affliction talent that makes my health and mana bars a single statistic. Instead of 6800 health, 6300 mana I have 13,100 combined. That would be just as hilariously broken as giving us "automatic" mana regen with HoTs, and let me see a five-digit number for my life.

If your ice mages don't show up for Nefarian, do your fire mages have to respec? No. You work around the lack of one type of character by having some of another. So we don't have people capable of ice block. But we DO have guys with Blast Wave for the zerg, and pretty decent DPS in the meantime. Fire has its strengths, as does ice (and arcane). In the same way, warlock talent trees all have their strengths. I'd love it if Affliction concentrated more on strengthening and diversifying my debuffs, rather than making small efficiency upgrades that don't really do much for me this late in the game.

While from a solo DPS perspective you are correct, you are neglecting the fact that SM/Ruin warlocks don't spend any points in Demonology. This means they don't have Improved Imp, which reduces their effectiveness as a raid buffer. MD/Ruin is quite possibly the "best" raid spec for warlocks stuck in the tank group, because you still have Ruin and, when the imp isn't needed, you can use any of the MD or DS talents to buff yourself as appropriate. Sadly you miss out on Affliction, of which I have become very fond.

That's how it was for a long time. On the high end of gear, however, it's no longer the case. Mages are simply too mana efficient, even without BoW/JoW. We can't keep up, and we spend a great deal of our time Life Tapping instead of bolting. This would be just fine if our DoTs were allowed on the raid and capable of making up for the time we're tapping. Sadly, neither of these conditions is true. In fact, I can't even out-burst most of our mages any more. They do more damage, faster, and for longer.

The restriction of the bonus to the spell that is easily 80% of our mana spent in an average fight isn't a big nerf, really. Plagueheart's 8/9 is laughable in the context of raiding because it does nothing for time efficiency. If you go on the assumption that PH is a set designed for leveling, however, it becomes a much more attractive bonus. Efficiency was always the way I aimed while leveling, killing perhaps more slowly but without interruption. PH 8-piece definitely helps in that regard.

I await solid, reputable information on the Expansion. Until I see the direction that is planned and what sorts of changes the dev team makes, it's far too early to judge the warlock class long-term. For the next six months, yes, we will be somewhat less desirable than other classes. When the expansion hits all bets are off.

I hope it comes out quickly (read: not March) because I too am very curious to see what they're bringing. Tseric seemed to take interest a few weeks back in various warlock PvE issues (he supported a thread based on the idea life tap reduces threat). However, he also did confirm the 16 debuff limit is around for the forseeable future. So, one obvious solution is stacking debuffs. It seems like a nightmare, each with different timers and +dmg factors, but there's a partial precedent: Ignite.

Obviously, ignite is not a perfect analogy because each application refreshes the stack duration. This would allow only one warlock, for example, to maintain a full stack of corruptions, which is stupid.

But how does the stacking ignite deal with the other problem, varying base dmgs? Does each fresh application simply stack as if it had the same damage as the original ignite? How does the game deal with it, and could it be applied to immo / corrupt?

I've never quite understood why Lifetap didn't work by % of health. If it took off, say, 10% of your health and gave it back as mana.

That way, a warlock who gets more stamina at the expense of mana (ie. wears set-pieces) is A. not penalized for it, and B. is in fact rewarded for picking up one of his primary stats.

That way, a warlock with a top-end pre-Naxx gearset, as such:
http://ctprofiles.net/1558511

Would have 6938 health fully raidbuffed as MD/Ruin w/ Imp. This would take off 694 health and give 694 back as mana. This would be, approximately, a 65% improvement at high levels of gear.

Now, the next thing that has to be done: Remove the GCD on Life Tap. BUT: Give it something like a 5 second cooldown.

This warlock, w/ 5pc Doomcaller, could Lifetap every second shadowbolt, and go pretty close to indefinitely, if he had a healer.

Perhaps overpowered, but I don't really think so. And saving the GCD would be a huge help.

Similar to the whole "A warlock with 500 shards is not overpowered", a warlock with infinite mana really wouldn't be very overpowered on raids. They don't exactly kill mages on damage for the 45 seconds before they have to start tapping.

I disagree with that. If a Warlock were given infinite mana, you would find many of them putting up 700DPS on Patchwerk (Flasked). We don't need to supplant Rogues/Mages. We just need to be more competitive. (I'm fine with well spec'd, comparably geared Mages beating me by 10%. It's the 50+% differentials that are causing the problems).

I am not. What is it that warlocks do that should force us to pay any sort of penalty as a raid damage dealer compared to mages? If we count individual abilities, mages have MORE raid utility than warlocks, and it's used more frequently.

Please explain this seemingly nonsensical statement. Warlock utility makes Mages look like Rogues.

Also a problem is that many are using the benchmark of Patchwerk as a way for comparing dps. Thing is many people really only care about dmg if its boss encounters, and quite often those are single target encounters. However the warlock nukes can't be as strong as mage nukes because mage nukes are the only way they do damage. If they make those equivalent (shadowbolt/frostbolt are pretty close in dmg already, its sustainability thats the issue) than warlocks would own mages (and all classes by a wide margin) in any encounters with multiple mobs that can't be tanked together. Sure mages have slightly better aoe, but its not like locks are bad there with hellfire and rain of fire. Anyway I think the dmg for warlocks is fine, its just the sustainability lags them quite a bit behind. Enhance that a bit to bring them closer to mages (maybe on a hunter level) on PW fights and that would be fine.

Those numbers are even, but some of those are conveniences and some of those have a lot of power. Also of course some are covered by other classes. Warlocks do have the stronger utility, more in the effect than in the numbers.

Warlocks:
Buffs:
Blood Pact
Detect Lesser Invisibilty
Healthstone
Soulstone
Summon

CC:
Fear (somewhat limited)
Banish (very limited)

Debuffs:
Curses (recklessness/shadow/elements)
Imp Shadowbolt

Random Utility:
Decent single-target damage
Channeled-melee range AOE: Useless w/o talents and concentration aura
DOTs: ie. damage while attention focused on another target
Mage:

Buffs:
Arcane Intellect
Dampen/Amplify Magic

CC:
Slow effects
Daze Effects
Polymorph (Less limited than Banish)

Debuffs:
Ignite
Winter's Chill
Slow effects
Freeze effects

Random Utility:
Conjure Food/Water
Portals
Strongest AoE in the game.
Strong, ranged, relatively-mana efficient, non-aggro-limited single-target DPS.

The utility seems too close to make up for the large different in damage-dealing capability.

True. In numbers they are close. But soulstones (only reliable wipe recovery for alliance), blood pact (health being far more important than mana because for mana staying power matters but for health spike damage matters) and curses are the 3 strongest utility either classes offer. Sure mages have a lot. The question is are they necessary like COR, soulstones and health for MTs? I don't think so.

Really? Let's go over it again, carefully.

Warlock raid utility:

soulstone

partially unique (if used on a key raid member), partially covered by paladins/shamans if used as wipe recovery. Very useful in all stages of the game.

-------------------

healthstone

free potion

-------------------

summoning

Unique. Convenience for lazy people.

-------------------

blood pact

Unique. Key for raid tanks on tough content.

-------------------

dispel (cooldown)

Paladins/Priests do this better. Warlocks almost never perform this function (perhaps on chromaggus sometimes).

-------------------

counterspell

Shared with mages. Rarely used, and mages generally do this because warlocks must have the felhunter out for this, and it's usually not the best pet.

-------------------

fear

Partially shared with priest and warriors, although only warlocks can spam it. Not frequently used in raids.

-------------------

banish

Occasional use in MC/BWL. Unique.

-------------------

CoE/CoS/CoR

Raid dps adds. Unique. Always used.

-------------------

Mage raid utility:

water/food

free food/water

-------------------

portals

Convenience for lazy people. Unique.

-------------------

arcane intellect

Unique. Force multiplier buff -- used always.

-------------------

decurse

Shared with druids. However, mages almost always perform this function when it is needed, because druid mana is better spent on healing.

-------------------

counterspell

Rarely used. Mages generally handle this over felhunters.

-------------------

sheep

Rarely used on 'showcase fights.' Unique.

-------------------

winter's chill/improved scorch

Raid dps adds. Always used. Unique.

-------------------

ice block (for pulling)

Unique. Frequent use, especially for horde which currently has no option of paladin pulling.

-------------------

detect magic

Unique. Occasional use in BWL/AQ. However, it MUST be used in some places.

-------------------

amplify/dampen magic

Unique. Not a required buff, but always helps, and on some fights is a key buff.

-------------------



You were saying? What you are doing is engaging in wowforums behavior. I spend time constructing an actual argument, make lists, etc. You just respond with 2 liners with no evidence whatsoever.

I just disagree on some of your labels. AI a force multiplier. If maximum mana was the most important thing, then would not all mages have arcane mind and druids spec HOTW always for the 20% int bonus? Really max mana in endgame is not that important. What matters is how long you can sustain it. 31 int is ~450 mana at the start of the fight, which is at most 2 spells before the effect of AI is completely negated. Can you tell me any battle where 450 mana was the difference between life and death? I never did in my time raiding. I am somewhat amused that you listed the spell mages use when a raid is over as part of their utility. At least summoning can be used within an instance. Still I stand what I said before. Both classes have utility. Soulstones, Blood Pact and curses are the most important imo. Both classes have their share of convenient utility (summoning, food/water, etc) I just consider the most vital ones are the lock ones. Than again this might be a case of the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

Edit: My response before wasn't even at yours. You guys gave a list of utility. So I disagree. I don't have to give a detailed mathematical breakdown of each utility. Something that you didn't even do either. You just gave your opinion, as did I. We don't agree.

I would say Mages have slightly worse "utility". A lot of stuff they bring to the table isn't exactly unique save Portals and Water. That is not to say Warlocks either need more utility or better damage, but Mages definetly don't outclass a Warlocks utility in my eyes, they come close though, which is bad.

Also most things you can fear are generally CCable in other ways.

Soulstones can be used for in battle rezes on important classes. I know we often did it on our MTs or main healers. Of course in later instances that is not a good idea since losing your MT is bad with untauntable bosses, but it was very valuable for us while learning MC. Good point on the spell crit though.

Mages do have their curses, but since they only help other mages I'm not sure how much I can call that raid utility. Warlocks help shadow priests, warlocks, mages, and all melee/hunters. Mages well help mages (unless locks are using searing pain.) Sure its raid utility, but it only helps mages. Do you call hunter's mark raid utility? Because that works pretty similar to mages. It helps hunters dmg for other hunters. Only difference is one is inherent and one you have to talent for it.

I agree mages have it better than warlocks in those things you listed. I agree threat and efficiency need fixing. (scalable life tap and 24 slot debuff limit as well as threat reduction talents my preferred fixes for the 2) I don't think elements is a concern, and I do think that warlocks AOE plus their ability to dot multiple targets is equivalent to mage aoe. None of that has anything to do with the fact that warlocks do have better utility. They do. And no it doesn't make up for being inferior to mages in the other ways they are now. But you said mages have MORE raid utility than warlocks, not that warlocks utility isn't enough to make up for the things they suffer in.

What I actually said was 'if you count individual abilities' mages have more utility than warlocks. Which is true by sheer numbers. You can argue 'relative importance' of utility warlocks and mages bring to the table all week. In terms of importance I would say it's about even from my raiding experience. If you want to argue warlock utility is somehow 'more important,' fine, but I think you are just defending preconceptions you had before you came to this board. In reality both locks and mages are clothies with a bag of utility tricks. Except you only want to invite 2 warlocks, but 4-6 mages.

As far curses that only help mages themselves not counting as utility. Firstly, no serious raiding guild to my knowledge actually fields shadow priests as a part of a 40 man lineup. So by your reasoning we can rid ourselves of CoS. Secondly, mage curses require certain talent specs which are otherwise less than optimal for damage. So an optimal raid will have 1 'deep frost' utility man to apply winter's chill, and the rest 'frost/arcane' hybrids with arcane instability which maximize their dps assuming winter's chill stays on target full time. So mage curses in some sense ARE utility because while they are mostly for mage benefit, they require some mages to sacrifice something for the benefit of other mages.

Here is a question Silya. If mages were as ineffective in pve right now as warlocks are, and warlocks had the power of mages, how many mages would you want in your raid to do their utility since their damage is shit. You say 2 locks. They are there for imps on two tank groups, soulstones, healthstones and of course COR and COE. If the thing was different you'd want 1 mage only. For detect magic and AI and the occasional amp/dampen magic. (Food/water can be bought or made by people outside) Decursing druids can do. That's why warlock utility is better. It's important enough that you want at least 2 to do their utility in spite of the fact they're inferior dmg dealers. For mages you would only need 1 for the utility you'd need.

I understand you're frustrated with your class. I hope blizzard fixes it. I would not have posted in response to you if you didn't say something like you did which I find well not true. I especially know warlocks are mad at mages since they have a lot of power right now as their fellow caster class.

Neither of these are good arguments. You are arguing it's better (in the current status quo) to want to bring 2 warlocks, than hypothetically only want to bring 1 mage. Neither is a good situation, so why argue which is better?

Currently mages out damage warlocks. You want to bring a lot of mages, you don't want to bring a lot of warlocks. None of us are blizzard, so we're just hoping for a fix, whether it's increased ability to do dmg through threat reduction, efficient tapping, or cheapers spells, or a more defined utility/debuffer/secondary DPS role where through both creative encounter design and the new 60-70 skills/talents, as well as a more debuff slots, warlocks gain the ability to bring more to a raid than simple direct damage.



Now that I said what I considered to be my main point, let me address your concern you'd only want 1 mage if all they had was their bag of tricks and subpar single target direct damage. True, conjuring, portals, int, and iceblock could be theoretically performed by one mage. However, AoE is never a one mage job, and as long as it remains important, Team Mage has a good reason to come to raids. It's extremely easy to design raid encounters that require AoE, so it's not going away anytime soon (unlike, say, Banish and Tranq, 2 utility abilities that can't realistically appear every dungeon).

The only (real) reason you want 2 warlocks is because you can't have 1 warlock cast both CoE and CoR, and those curses are an important enough force multiplier where you want to sacrifice an additional raid slot to a subpar dps class just to get them both. You can argue that on some encounters you want more than one thing banished -- but then on some encounters you want more than one thing sheeped. Don't forget also that mages are the premier AoE class -- so 1 mage certainly would not do to conquer all the AoE content in the game right now. You would not be able to replace mages with hellfire and rain of fire. Even if mages had crap single target damage, you would still bring maybe 3-4 mages just for their non-single-target functionality and utility. Finally, if you only bring 1 mage to a raid, there is no point to bring a second warlock because CoE becomes worthless.

As far as your comment about 'warlock anger at mages.' In some sense I am a lot more annoyed at Blizzard for failing to fix fundamental class balance stupidity for two years. I am not angry at mages as a whole, but perhaps at stupid mages for not wanting warlocks to get better in raids due to some ill will from being a natural victim class to warlocks in PvP. Having warlocks be better in raids helps everyone!