Main problem with warlock "revamp" (that actually took 3 patches to reach current form) is that it was started in completly different enviroment that we have now.

Back in days most locks had only MC raiding experience and mayor troubles were obviously not related to high end PvE viability (that was pretty good in MC, and improved after the 16 debuff limit introduction), but PvP problems (no escape ability) and utility issues (shards), as well as bringing some life in other trees then Affliction (oh the days when everyone was SM/Ruin...). Both main problems were patched up, so "revamp" of the class has ended.

Right now, with post MC experience, it's pretty easy to nail problems with PvE viability of the class.

1. Debuff limit vs. number of locks in raid.

That's right, it's not really about priorities (although proper priority system helps), but about number of slots. With 2 warlocks in raid, they can be fairly free to use Corruption and Immolation on the top of obligatory CoE/CoR, but it's still 6 debuff slots just for those 2 locks. With 3 locks, they consume 9 slots (3rd one goes for CoS/Corr/Imo). With 4, they consume 12 (4th goes for CoA/Corr/Imo). See the pattern?

And with introduction of new attractive debuffs this easy warlock DPS can't be really used in single target fights.

NOTE: Of course this does not affect fights with multiple, not-AoEable targets. DoTing warlock can easily top his DPS here with DoTing all the mobs.

2. Lifetap doesn't scale well with current HP levels.

I could call this problem differently - lack of mana efficiency of SB spell, but IMHO real problem is not SB (which have to be inefficient because of PvP). Real problem is that we are stuck with old lifetap, designed for much lower HP warlocks then you can see now.

Right now, talented Lifetap gives us 508-509 mana for 424 HP (not for all builds, MD/Ruin have worse Lifetap efficiency). Having new rank of this spell, for example set on 600 HP base (720 mana back with imp. lifetap) would solve many efficiency problems warlocks have now in high end PvE. Why warlocks use Dark Runes, if they have exactly the same spell in their disposal that got no cooldown? Efficiency.

NOTE: This problem will probably vanish with exp. pack, as new spell ranks will be introduced.

3. Aggro issues.

This is more tricky subject. As wierd as it might sound, I don't find aggro critical problem for warlocks right now, because of the problem stated above. As we have limited ability to DoT, our DPS is based on shadowbolt, which in turn got bad mana efficiency, which leads to lifetapping, which in turn leads to lower DPS. In result, in any fight longer then 30 sec. (unless we go all out with consumables or have alliance mana efficiency) warlock will ultimately lose leading position on DPS chart, which will naturally adjust his aggro level. Only risk is present in case of mobs with deaggro abilities, but hey - no risk, no fun. ;)

On the other hand IF points (1) or (2) were solved, warlock DPS would rise to levels where some sort of aggro control would be neccessary. Idea of using lifetap to deaggro seems pretty good, it fits our playstyle very well.

no shit... luck != skill.

I truly hate seeing 2000 debuffs and nuke starting to come after 1 second of fighting. Sunders do not land 100% of the time, give a couple of seconds to people and don't start nuking straight ahead.

If a mob goes straight for you, that doesn't mean your tank is necessarily sucky, he may just have had an unlucky hitting streak at the start...

Talking spec-wise, I hear a lot of people trash darkpact and talk up DS. I don't see it. The imp provides what is essentially a group-wide Blasted Lands stam buff (slightly better even) to your entire group. That's certianly more use then hunter pets get in most situations. And, taking advantedge of that, dark pact allows for mana free of health, which is the real plus. It's mana/cd and range do suffer, but on Sartura learning for example, a little life-tapping can leave you extremely vulnerable to a whirlwind.

I don't think it's perfect, but when people talk up the bonuses of sacrificing a noticible group benefit, for a personal dps boost, or don't see the potential of what really is free mana, I wonder what they're seeing that I'm not.

It's free mana that requires you to waste time in the global cooldown to use. Fel Energy (felhunter DS buff) is probably going to be the most important talent for raiding warlocks in Naxxramas.

As an example, I have 6k mana raid buffed. With Fel Energy I get 120mana /4sec. Over 20 seconds I cast 8 Shadow Bolts spending 3040. Over 20 seconds I recover 600 mana which equates to a 20% lower Shadow Bolt cost. With Cataclysm you can actually approach a mage's efficiency, but it still doesn't quite come close.

-threat talents is not the solution to bringing a warlock's contribution to the raid more in line with the rest of the classes.

Point is that imp can't be really considered Lung Juice equivalent. It's aura, and it's 20 yard range aura. Basically, it's mobile totem, that you can make stationary if you want. Lung Juice is a... blessing? ;)

So in many situations using imp is not really that great. MT group - yes, yes, yes (as MT is usually not moving that much). Static fights like Huhuran? Sure. But in any fight with lots of movement imp buff is mostly wasted and causes wierd fluctiations of peoples HP.

As for Dark Pact, it suffers from the same problem as Lifetap - it does not scale at all. Since both have the same time efficiency (no cooldown except from global one), but Lifetap returns double amount of mana then DP, so it's really pretty easy to guess which spell will be used more often. Yes, Dark Pact does not tax your HP, but same can be said about sacrificing fehunter, that will give you around 100-120 mana/4 sec. with BWL class gear without triggering any cooldowns. Or you can go for approx. 200 HP/4 sec. regeneration of Voidwalker sacrifice, that can be used to keep SB+lifetap routine longer without HoTs/bandage.

You also lose more than 10% damage overall due to lack of SM that every DP warlock will have, as well as the typically added dps from nightfall procs, you can't really view the talents completely isolated like that.

And yeah, aggro is not a significant problem for a warlock, outside of BWL which was specifically designed to be touch with regards to aggro - scaling of key talents and the dependability on ruin is, IMHO.

I totally agree. One of the best things about warlocks is the versatility and large arsenal of tools available to us. (It's also one of the things that gives me the most grief when I see the majority of warlocks being completely clueless about most of them).

Mages should be the best caster dps, because well, that's what they do. Unfortunately, the support roles of warlocks are severely reduced in raid pve, but atleast we have solo pve and pvp :)

Well, warlocks were taught by Blizzard to be shadowmages in raids from day one in MC, why should they all the sudden switch to shaman/pally-like utility duty? ;)

To be honest, I don't think we can expect any change in that matter. Debuffing role has slightly improved when 16 slots were introduced, but this space is being consumed fast by new attractive debuffs, like shadow weaving, winter chill, fire vuln., faire fire, thunderfurry, JoW if alliance or even Nightfall (axe, not talent) proc. As we are left with CoE/CoR and CoS (if raid got solid representation of warlocks), there is not much space for anything else to fit there. And the fact that more warlock in raid means infighting for DoTs spots doesn't help.

Scaling our key abilities would make us better shadowmages, and it's probably the best we can get from devs. And I fully agree that mages should be the best ranged DPS class, that's why upgrade can't be really radical, like giving SB efficiency close to the one FB have. For shadowmage role, we just need some tweaking. For debuffer role... whole debuff system would need update.

I guess that sort of illustrates an important division in the debate. A little more scaling on our mana/return, a solid debuff prioritization, and something ruin seem the key issues. I don't want warlocks to be reworked into mages with pets, but I doubt everyone feels the same way.

Warlocks were never shadowmages in MC. Warlocks had just as much potential and power then - indeed, when we first went in, warlocks were *more* powerful, because the Imp buff was a massive increase in hitpoints to everyone in your group. Same as Health Stones. Those buffs haven't scaled at all, whilst we have. Warlocks played Shadowmages in MC because MC was *easy* and because you could get away with it without much difficulty.

Regarding damage upgrading - warlocks already are one of the top damage classes in the game. They rank right alongside hunters in dealing damage, and often break top 10 in our charts, and that's without insane Alliance tricks. Exactly how much more damage does the warlock class need before people are satisfied? There are only 2 pure damage classes in WoW raiding, and warlocks already come incredibly close to both of those.

I just don't see the current trend towards warlocks needing adjustements to their damage outputs. They do great single target damage, superb multiple target damage, and a warlock playing well can AE alongisde mages with 0 problems in every AE situation we've ever been in. What exact tweaking is needed? Heck, we've even got Patchwerk damage meters showing warlocks as top? And even on those where the warlock isn't getting silly buffs, ever meter I've seen so far has warlocks immediately below the mages & rogues. (And warriors on some).

Isn't warlock damage already at the place it should be? Right behind mages & rogues, and equal to hunters? Exactly *how* close does it have to be before people are happy? 1 DPS away from mages? 0.5 DPS? 10 damage over the course of a 5minute fight?

You might be right, DPS-wise we might be in place Blizzard expected us to be.

And by "tweaks" I mean some mana efficiency adjustments, like said new rank of lifetap for example. Patchwerk example is... well, I can only congratulate warlock in top 10 in this fight, especially Horde one. I can imagine what he used to sustain fire in this fight (Dark Runes, Mana Pots, Nightfin/Mageblood/Mana Spring + something I don't know). Thing is that scaling of our main mana regaining ability is not there, so the gap between us and mages becomes wider with each gear upgrade.

Again, maybe we are now in this sweet spot that was intended for warlocks, right below mages and rogues, but with extra utility... I'm far from crying over mage revamp, that's for sure.

So what your saying is - you contribute 10% damage to extra mage in the raid. You give healthstones to half your raid. Your imp is buffing everyones hitpoints by an *extremely* tasty amount. You can, with effort, pu8sh yourself right to the top of the damage meter.

And you want more damage?

Seriously, this discussiosn has entered fairy land right now, where magical rainbows and sugar puffs fall from the sky.

Also, regarding AE. Stop denying the obvious. In a raid setting, the difference between Mage & Warlock AE is minimal. Mages can slow if they talent spec that way, and they have an instant AE. Doesnt stop warlocks equally mage damage output on the Gauntlet, Phase 1 Nef, Phase 3 Nef or in AQ though. Especially as long AE is one of those situations where warlocks mana abilities *really* come to the front.

High sustained longterm dps is the issue. No one cares about trash, you barely ever have to life tap during a trash pull. Its the bosses that last 3-10 minutes that are the issue.

But long term DPs without aggro has warlocks just below mages & rogues, and equal to hunters - and above them with the right buffs and gear. Thats on fights like Patchwerk, which is one of the easiest testing fights there is.

What exactly is being sought here? Do warlocks thing they should be dealing mroe damage than mages & rogues on single targets?

"High sustained longterm dps is the issue. No one cares about trash, you barely ever have to life tap during a trash pull. Its the bosses that last 3-10 minutes that are the issue."

amen to that.

give us way without having 5 doomcaller, cataclysm and DS felhunter to achieve some decent sustained longterm dps.

I can mention quite a few fights where aggro IS the limiting factor. Huhuran in AQ or Anub'rekhan's adds in Naxxramas. On both I have to hold back quite a bit, and it's not related to poor tanks.

Right up until something hits us. Then goodbye warlock ae. Not to mention hellfire is the most horribly expensive ae spell in the game (mana + hp cost).

Barring Arcane Explosion ( our worst AE for mana efficiency by far), all of ours are channelled as well. And Hellfire is vicous - but it deals the most damage out of any spammable AE, and as long as you have some healing you a decent amount, its health cost is negligeable - especialy as when your using it, in AE situations, it's not like the healers need to be spamming heals on the tanks either.

This is true, but they also have low DPS. ~75% of your damage will come from Shadow Bolt, and it is woefully inefficient. I can easily go out of mana within 45-50 seconds of a fight even if I take care to optimize my spell cycle.

So you're proposing that you can build Soul Link / Ruin builds while having 10% chance to stun for two talent points?

Then you start complaining about damage when (albeit with proper consumables) you are topping DPS in certain fights; while to providing a boost in damage to your melee and threat generation to your tanks (in CoR), or increasing your Mages' dps by 10% (CoE) and have various other utility uses?

Seriously, re-read your post and look how absurd your "fixes" are.

You have to start ignoring the posts about damage when people honestly write :

Once I have added 10% to the damage of every mage in the raid, I should then deal as much damage as those mages.

See post 44.

Give warlocks Curse of Wisdom, a slightly buffed version of JoW, and just make Curse of Weakness a slightly buffed version of Insect Swarm. No Paladins or Druids would lose raid spots because of moving these debuffs to the warlock class. All of a sudden bringing five warlocks now makes your raid as efficient as possible. Wouldn't be a PvP buff, would just be a straight-up buff to warlocks desirability in raid environments.