Elitist Jerks [Theorycraft] Correct Way to Model Non-Static Trinkets mathematically?

 07/05/06, 2:46 PM #2 chalon Founder of the Chalonverse   Chalon Night Elf Rogue   No WoW Account Well uh your Fetish of the Sand Reaver calcs are off in that you're assuming that you can suddenly do 3x the DPS just because you aren't threat-limited for 20s. In any event, the method you describe for Blessed Prayer Beads is precisely what I use for Earthstrike and Slayer's Crest. As for Kiss of the Spider, I model the haste by assuming you tie it directly to your Blade Flurry. So in the haste table, I have SnD base as 1.3 as 87.5% of your haste, and the Blade Flurry haste of 1.56 at 12.5%. If you have Kiss of the Spider, the Blade Flurry haste jumps from 1.56 to 1.872 for those 15s.
 07/05/06, 2:52 PM #3 Kalman Super Macho Man     <> Orc Shaman   No WoW Account The way I would model burst trinkets, especially multiplicative burst trinkets, is by calculating their combined effects, then calculating a weighted average value to determine total output. E.G.: Earthstrike, Blade Flurry, and Adrenaline Rush. Assume they're always popped synchronously (close enough to true for me, at least), you can gather the following. Per 360 seconds, you will have: 15 seconds of ES/BF/AR 30 seconds of ES/BF 15 seconds of just ES (the leftover 5 after BF ends from each of the three activations per 6 minutes) 300 seconds of default DPS So, take 1/24(ES/BF/AR DPS) + 1/24 (ES DPS) + 1/12 (ES/BF DPS) + 5/6 (default DPS), and you have your overall DPS average. You can modify the weighting factors for different lengths of encounter, as well. It's basically the same method Deathwing uses to handle execute DPS (80/20). Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers. Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here. Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
 07/05/06, 3:01 PM #4 Fiola Great Tiger   Fiola Human Paladin   Skywall I think a better way of modeling the trinkets is to simply think of them as static bonuses. Take the ToEP: 175 +dmg/healing for 15 seconds. Assuming normal spell casts, that's 175/3.5 = 50 bonus DPS/HPS for 15 seconds, or 750 bonus damage/healing done, assuming you cast for the full 15 seconds. (This will be higher if you're using spells with a cast time reduction from talents/gear) This is the equivalent of a 29 +dmg/healing trinket - except that it only takes 15 seconds of casting to get the ToEP's full benefit, whereas you must chaincast for 90 seconds for the 29 +dmg trinket to have the same benefit. (Edit: DoTs/HoTs will modify this further, since each will get the full damage benefit, but only take 1.5 seconds to cast. ie: 10 renews cast in 15 seconds would yield 1750 bonus healing, vs. 750 from casting direct heals, from the ToEP. ) The ZHC is trickier to model, since it depends on how many spells you cast - but you can come up with a min/max value for it by looking at the slowest and fastest spells you can cast for its duration. Same for the Talisman of Ascendence. For the threat reduction trinket, I don't think you can consider it as an AP/+dmg boost. Rather, for the time period it's up, it allows you to push as much DPS as you can at a highly reduced level of threat. Say you can do 500 DPS going all out. When the trinket is activated, you can go at your 500 DPS potential, and generate threat as if you're doing 150 DPS. You essentially get 350 DPS* (trinket duration) of threat free damage - great for an aggro sensitive fight, and worth more the higher your max DPS is. Assuming, of course, that you can't reach your max DPS due to threat ceilings.
07/05/06, 3:07 PM   #5
Lurchington
King Hippo

Tauren Druid

Mannoroth
 Originally Posted by chalon Well uh your Fetish of the Sand Reaver calcs are off in that you're assuming that you can suddenly do 3x the DPS just because you aren't threat-limited for 20s. In any event, the method you describe for Blessed Prayer Beads is precisely what I use for Earthstrike and Slayer's Crest. As for Kiss of the Spider, I model the haste by assuming you tie it directly to your Blade Flurry. So in the haste table, I have SnD base as 1.3 as 87.5% of your haste, and the Blade Flurry haste of 1.56 at 12.5%. If you have Kiss of the Spider, the Blade Flurry haste jumps from 1.56 to 1.872 for those 15s.
I know that, but I guess I was trying to put down the max you could do without increasing your aggro generation rate.

 Originally Posted by Demi90D You can't simply convert 14ap to 1dps. After skills, haste, procs, etc it ends up being much more. For instance I require about 5ap for 1dps increase.
That I did not know. I guess I'd have to start looking at the ammount of damage added to each auto-attack swing via attack power.

 Originally Posted by Fiola I think a better way of modeling the trinkets is to simply think of them as static bonuses.
I think that matches up to what I have down.

 07/06/06, 1:13 PM #6 Lurchington King Hippo     Kirtland Tauren Druid   Mannoroth I'm experimenting with using two parameters to encapsulate the fact that oftentimes, you burst cast on use of a timered trinket. Is there a mathematical basis for: Casts_Per_Minute Burst_Casts_Per_Minute for something like Blessed Prayer Beads? If I say that "normal" CPM is 12 and BCPM is say, 20 Then I could model (Heal_Bonus)*(BCPM/ACTIVE_TIME_PER_MINUTE) / (CPM * Minutes_Of_Cooldown) as 190*(20/3)/(2*12) = 52.778 +healing bonus. This looks like it's going to always overvalue on use trinkets, but is there a good way to account for the way people change their activities based on cooldowns?
07/06/06, 1:51 PM   #7
Fiola
Great Tiger

Skywall
 Originally Posted by LurchDawg This looks like it's going to always overvalue on use trinkets, but is there a good way to account for the way people change their activities based on cooldowns?
Me, I'd just calculate what the maximum possible benefit from a trinket is, and then mebbe throw in a "realistic" scenario. (PvP preventing you from standing still, etc), just so you just get an idea of how useful a given trinket is.

The whole situational use of trinkets makes it tough to compare them with just math, since it depends on so many variables. = P

 07/06/06, 3:10 PM #8 Avellyr Piston Honda     Avellyr Night Elf Hunter   Alterac Mountains It gets even more interesting with trinkets like the Jom Gabbar, where you basically have to map out exactly what you're going to do for those 20 seconds to get maximum effect out of it. It's good to be a hunter, because you can freely swap trinkets in combat, which forces me to take into account the 30 second equip timer on top of everything else, but allows me to use a superior static trinket when my earthstrike is on cooldown.
07/06/06, 3:12 PM   #9
Lurchington
King Hippo

Tauren Druid

Mannoroth
 Originally Posted by Avellyr It gets even more interesting with trinkets like the Jom Gabbar, where you basically have to map out exactly what you're going to do for those 20 seconds to get maximum effect out of it. It's good to be a hunter, because you can freely swap trinkets in combat, which forces me to take into account the 30 second equip timer on top of everything else, but allows me to use a superior static trinket when my earthstrike is on cooldown.
Do you use itemrack for this? And if so, is it as simple as queuing up the new trinkets and it swaps automatically when you have that split-second of being out of combat?

07/06/06, 3:39 PM   #10
• Fogbug
๏̯͡๏)

Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by LurchDawg
 Originally Posted by Avellyr It gets even more interesting with trinkets like the Jom Gabbar, where you basically have to map out exactly what you're going to do for those 20 seconds to get maximum effect out of it. It's good to be a hunter, because you can freely swap trinkets in combat, which forces me to take into account the 30 second equip timer on top of everything else, but allows me to use a superior static trinket when my earthstrike is on cooldown.
Do you use itemrack for this? And if so, is it as simple as queuing up the new trinkets and it swaps automatically when you have that split-second of being out of combat?
the trinket mod bundled with equipmanager (lol) does this, the trinket mod bundled with itemrack didn't last I checked

07/06/06, 6:23 PM   #11
Kir
Piston Honda

Hyjal
 Originally Posted by Demi9OD You can't simply convert 14ap to 1dps. After skills, haste, procs, etc it ends up being much more. For instance I require about 5ap for 1dps increase.
Does anyone have an excel formula that will calculate this? I'd hate to have to do this math every few weeks when I've made equipment upgrades.
I'm SS/combat spec, but if you also have it for combat dagger, my fellow rogue guild members would like it I'm sure.

 07/06/06, 6:28 PM #12 Kalman Super Macho Man     <> Orc Shaman   No WoW Account Kir, check out Chalon's combat daggers/Valar's combat swords spreadsheets. You can get the values you're looking for out of those by manual manipulation of a couple values. Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers. Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here. Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
 07/06/06, 6:48 PM #13 Kir Piston Honda   Kirlock Undead Mage   Hyjal Yea... I was just thinking that, but didn't have those on my work computer here. I have those spreadsheets. I think I'll spend a little bit of time figuring out some of the break points, like once your 900 atk power and 26 crit, Z atk power = 1 dps and just make a little chart. We have an officer awarded loot system, and had to have this discussion with an officer who had made a calculuation error in determining how good an item was for a guild member. Really iTunes? Free downloads while supplies last?
07/06/06, 7:39 PM   #14
Avellyr
Piston Honda

Night Elf Hunter

Alterac Mountains
 Do you use itemrack for this? And if so, is it as simple as queuing up the new trinkets and it swaps automatically when you have that split-second of being out of combat?
Yes, Itemrack will do it. I just modified the script that comes with the mod for swapping your PvP trinkets to work for my trinkets.

 Elitist Jerks [Theorycraft] Correct Way to Model Non-Static Trinkets mathematically?

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