Hunter Talent Build - Page 2

◊ Shalas · 07/10/06, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Bogart

Isn't there a point with buffed Agility where KI/LR (0/21/30) provides a larger pure RAP buff than TSA/RWS (0/31/20)? Something like 365 Agi. Then there's a later itemisation point where you have enough +hit in gear to dump Surefooted in favour of balls-out 5/31/15. Is that about right? I'm one Essence of Air from breaking that supposed Agi threshold (my raidgroup epitomises that head-in-hands ASCII), and I want to know if a respec is in my near future.

LR can get your RAP above 31MM, but RWS + Barrage means that it never actually does more damage.

Rex · 07/10/06, 5:03 PM

It has been discussed countless times that 450 unbuffed agi and the 21/30 talents is on par with a 5/31/15 build.

Many people have argued but im not down for theory craft. I personally think both builds are great depending on gear and what you are doing in game ie; raiding, pvp, ect.

Starks · 07/10/06, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by Rex

It has been discussed countless times that 450 unbuffed agi and the 21/30 talents is on par with a 5/31/15 build.

That's wrong, but I think that number is closer to when LR = TSA. With the gear attainable in the game atm it's more or less impossible to have 0/21/30 outdps 5/31/15.

It's been discussed already pretty thoroughly in this thread: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6837

Xeen · 07/10/06, 5:09 PM

Do you guys just abandon the benefit of 5/5 Imp. Mark? Granted, it's a waste on multiple people, but is the raid cumulative from having it up so low that you don't even bother with having 'Joe the New Guy' have it?

I'll never understand why more people don't go for my patented WTF Was He Thinking? spec. :(

Huntemup · 07/10/06, 5:31 PM

Hey Xeen. /wave

We don't abandon 5/5 imp mark, but IMHO its either 0/5 imp mark or 5/5 imp mark. Cause anything in between just causes problems when marking on the fly. Usually the guy that grabs 5/5 imp mark, sacrifices 3 points from the survival tree. Having 5/5 in Improved Arcane Shot, as well as 5/5 imp mark, would make me lose too many wayyyyy more valuable goodies. Course I've never been much of an arcane shot spammer.

Huntemup · 07/10/06, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Starks

Originally Posted by Rex

It has been discussed countless times that 450 unbuffed agi and the 21/30 talents is on par with a 5/31/15 build.

That's wrong, but I think that number is closer to when LR = TSA. With the gear attainable in the game atm it's more or less impossible to have 0/21/30 outdps 5/31/15.

It's been discussed already pretty thoroughly in this thread: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6837

Both are fairly comparable DPS wise in raid situations when geared to fit the build. I've been both spec's, and the basic way to sum it up is this.

MM = You hit hard, but crit less often. (Gear to crit more, and snag AP from wherever you can)
LR = You hit less hard, but crit more often. (Gear to hit harder, while whoring yourself out for agility)

Survival spec scales slightly better at high lvls (T3 is probably the break point), since the 100ap from TSA is static, but in the end the difference is minimal. And Marks will always provide more raid benefit, since TSA provides a pretty significant boost to Rogue/DPS warrior/LR Hunter dps.

Grimmarg · 07/10/06, 7:47 PM

Originally Posted by Huntemup

Hey Xeen. /wave

We don't abandon 5/5 imp mark, but IMHO its either 0/5 imp mark or 5/5 imp mark. Cause anything in between just causes problems when marking on the fly. Usually the guy that grabs 5/5 imp mark, sacrifices 3 points from the survival tree. Having 5/5 in Improved Arcane Shot, as well as 5/5 imp mark, would make me lose too many wayyyyy more valuable goodies. Course I've never been much of an arcane shot spammer.

Why would you EVER take imp. arc. shot anyway?

Elendril · 07/10/06, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by Rex

It has been discussed countless times that 450 unbuffed agi and the 21/30 talents is on par with a 5/31/15 build.

Many people have argued but im not down for theory craft. I personally think both builds are great depending on gear and what you are doing in game ie; raiding, pvp, ect.

it has been discussed by countless people who are wrong. 450 unbuffed agi will give you comparable AP to trueshot aura from lightning reflexes, but you still lose Barrage, Ranged Weapon Specialization, and Improved Aspect of the hawk. there is no point at which 0/21/30 will ever outperform 5/31/15 given realistically attainable levels of agility. i have 555 agi unbuffed and respec'ing is the last thing on my mind.

it obviously doesn't 'prove' anything, but here's our last ouro kill damage meter. any guesses which hunter is LR spec? hint: not me.

◊ Lactose · 07/10/06, 7:57 PM

Just curious, do you have a profile with your gear and stats?

Elendril · 07/10/06, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by Lactose

Just curious, do you have a profile with your gear and stats?

me? http://ctprofiles.net/29777 has my duds, and i'm pretty sure it's current. i swap between the barb and silithid claw/fang for different fights, but the rest of the gear is pretty consistant.

Troggy · 07/10/06, 8:12 PM

On a different note: By how much will 5/31/15 actually outperform 0/31/20 ? I've recently switched to 5/31/15 and I miss Imp. Feign a lot. Also I'm really noticing the lack of Surefooted, having only 5% +hit on my gear so I'm considering going back.

Edit: Typo, I only have 5% +hit on my regular gear

Starks · 07/10/06, 8:17 PM

Originally Posted by Troggy

On a different note: By how much will 5/31/15 actually outperform 0/31/20 ? I've recently switched to 5/31/15 and I miss Imp. Feign a lot. Also I'm really noticing the lack of Surefooted, having only 6% +hit on my gear so I'm considering going back.

If you have that much +hit, your probably better off going 2/31/18 or 3/31/17. As far as Imp Feign goes, I don't know how much of a DPS difference that could make, though I guess on a fight like Broodlord where you'd have to stop and autoshot or hold off all DPS after a resisted feign it's quite useful.

Elendril · 07/10/06, 8:24 PM

Originally Posted by Troggy

On a different note: By how much will 5/31/15 actually outperform 0/31/20 ? I've recently switched to 5/31/15 and I miss Imp. Feign a lot. Also I'm really noticing the lack of Surefooted, having only 6% +hit on my gear so I'm considering going back.

improved aspect of the hawk is a pretty substantial DPS boost. it should be easy enough to crunch the exact numbers per point based on what % of your overall damage is autoshot, and the % increase to autoshot that imp hawk gives you. i really don't think imp feign is necessary if you periodically feign at intervals based on the feel you have for tank aggro, though. surefooted i can see getting temporarily at least, if you're missing the necessary +hit gear, but i haven't done the math to compare the two since hit has never really been an issue for me.

◊ Lactose · 07/10/06, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

Originally Posted by Lactose

Just curious, do you have a profile with your gear and stats?

me? http://ctprofiles.net/29777 has my duds, and i'm pretty sure it's current. i swap between the barb and silithid claw/fang for different fights, but the rest of the gear is pretty consistant.

Thanks =)

Elendril · 07/10/06, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by Lactose

Originally Posted by Elendril

Originally Posted by Lactose

Just curious, do you have a profile with your gear and stats?

me? http://ctprofiles.net/29777 has my duds, and i'm pretty sure it's current. i swap between the barb and silithid claw/fang for different fights, but the rest of the gear is pretty consistant.

Thanks =)

the most important part of my gear is definitely my rugged trapper's shirt. lvl 1 shirt > all

◊ Lactose · 07/10/06, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

Originally Posted by Lactose

Originally Posted by Elendril

me? http://ctprofiles.net/29777 has my duds, and i'm pretty sure it's current. i swap between the barb and silithid claw/fang for different fights, but the rest of the gear is pretty consistant.

Thanks =)

the most important part of my gear is definitely my rugged trapper's shirt. lvl 1 shirt > all

No doubt.

joki · 07/11/06, 7:54 AM

I'm a 0/21/30 hunter, alliance side, and I just cant bring myself to change to the MM spec, both because I enjoy dominating in pvp and being an AP whore. Anyhow, I think people underrate the build by a lot, if DMs are to show what each build can do, here is the ss of our patchwerk kill today.

I was leeching TSA, and was using a mongoose pot. Thanks other MM hunters :p

Gear: http://ctprofiles.net/2318786

Farstrider · 07/11/06, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Starks

That's wrong, but I think that number is closer to when LR = TSA. With the gear attainable in the game atm it's more or less impossible to have 0/21/30 outdps 5/31/15.

The point where LR = TSA is the point where (1.15*AGI) - AGI = 50

i.e. 0.15 * AGI = 50

AGI= 333.33

That discounts the effect of the additional crit, which is around 1% at that point, worth probably, around 4dps.

Either way LR pretty much always is better than TSA, it's RWS that is harder to quantify.

Both Elendril's and my own dmg meters (which I will screeny next time I run with my hunter) show that RWS means 5/31/15>0/21/30.

If you could ever take LR, not take TSA, and keep RWS, it'd be worth it unless they put some ludicrous talents in the new lvl 70 trees

(possibly a new talent that defaults the speed of your weapon to 3.4?!?!)

EDIT:- By RWS, I mean RWS, Barrage & IAotH of course.

tek · 07/11/06, 9:49 AM

A scalign talent is something that ALL DPS classes will onday spec into due to itemazation. Its why the rogues have been bitching so much... and also the change to fewer MS warriors vs fury warriors. Scalability. Eventually LR will over take MM, at what point in itemazation that will be? no clue. but mark my words... it will happen, just like it did to DPS warriors moving from MS (rather static DPS) to fury (a scaling talent tree that is much more gear dependant).

◊ Lactose · 07/11/06, 10:20 AM

How is +5% damage to all, +15% damage to Multi-Shot and Improved Aspect of the Hawk (estimated to be ~4% increase with 5/5 invested) not scaling? Trueshot Aura is static, and is already easily surpassed (atleast for personal damage), the others have been the important factor for a long time, and they still are. They scale.

Rex · 07/11/06, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Elendril

Originally Posted by Rex

It has been discussed countless times that 450 unbuffed agi and the 21/30 talents is on par with a 5/31/15 build.

Many people have argued but im not down for theory craft. I personally think both builds are great depending on gear and what you are doing in game ie; raiding, pvp, ect.

it has been discussed by countless people who are wrong. 450 unbuffed agi will give you comparable AP to trueshot aura from lightning reflexes, but you still lose Barrage, Ranged Weapon Specialization, and Improved Aspect of the hawk. there is no point at which 0/21/30 will ever outperform 5/31/15 given realistically attainable levels of agility. i have 555 agi unbuffed and respec'ing is the last thing on my mind.

it obviously doesn't 'prove' anything, but here's our last ouro kill damage meter. any guesses which hunter is LR spec? hint: not me.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a60...er/ourodps.jpg

Damn nice. I nearly have the same build as you. The gear on the other hand not so much.

• frmorrison · 07/11/06, 11:39 AM

Not really a build question, but if you had 3 Dragonstalker, cast AotH, then removed the DS, would you keep the AotH buff?

Keltan · 07/11/06, 11:42 AM

Yes, that trick still worked, last I checked.

Elendril · 07/11/06, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Not really a build question, but if you had 3 Dragonstalker, cast AotH, then removed the DS, would you keep the AotH buff?

i believe that is fixed, or at least i couldnt' get it to work last i tried.

Huntemup · 07/11/06, 12:34 PM

Pretty sure the AoH bug got fixed last patch. At least thats what our in house GS junky was saying. He finally put on 6/8 DS and banked the GS because of it.

Ill test it when I get home today, and edit this post if it in fact still works.