Right, I've done some work on this using the Hunter Simulation Spreadsheet.

Up to agility levels of around 700 5/31/15 still outdoes 0/21/30. At around 730 it finally underperforms.

The real maths that you need to do is something like this

KI = 3% dmg increase

agi*0.15*2 = rap increase from LR

agi*0.15*2/14 = dps increase from RAP effect of LR

(agi*0.15)/53 = crit (dmg) increase from LR

so.. total increase in dmg from SV = (3%+15agi/530000)*current dps +(0.3agi/14)

TSA = 100 RAP increase = 7.14dps

Barrage = 15% increase on some % of your shots.

Using spreadsheet shows this % to be around 18% at current levels of gear and I will hold it constant for simplicity.

15%*18%=2.7%

RWS = 5% increase to all dmg

So, at what stage does (3%+15agi/530000)*current dps + (0.3agi/14) = (5%+2.7%) * current dps + 7.14 ??

At this point I realised that if I didn't fix dps it was going to be a complete nightmare - there is no fixed relation between Agi & dps, due to the number of +AP items. So I took a fixed number of 600 which seems to be about fair for a fully mana'd cutting edge raid hunter.

600[(15Agi/530000) - 4.7%] +0.3agi/14 = 7.14

67.5A/5300 - 28.2 + 0.3A/14 = 7.14

472.5A/37100 + 795A/37100 = 35.34

A=1034.41 i.e. not for a long time.

Incidentally at lower levels of dps i.e. 450dps this gives 828.05

This is greater than the number above due to the fact that I kept the barrage benefit constant, whereas in fact it diminishes marginally over time.

Wow my brain hurts now. Almost certainly packed full of mistakes but I was trying to just get a feel for this.

that math is long and complicated, but i think you're missing improved aspect of the hawk too :-P

With only +5 hit you should definately have 3/3 surefooted imo - try to always keep +9 overall.

---

I've always been a huge fan of improved FD: Allows reliable freeze trapping on Razor, big difference in DPS on Broodlord (versus getting multiple resists and having to back off DPS heavily), and great for the increasing number of zerg encounters that have been added (Nef Phase 3, Anub Scarabs etc.) to lay frost or explosive traps. Also reliably FDing after a wipe (or anywhere in game) saves you a lot of gold and time wasting.

3/31/17
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...20202210020000

Is what I've settled on.

Off topic I know.

But why do I see most hunters with dragonstalker Bracers with +9 stam instead of 4mana per 5sec?

I could see why Alliance hunters would have +9 stam since mana wouldn't be as big of a issue but being horde side I see mana regen as very important compaired to the +9 stam.
I've even seen a few hunters with +1agl on their Dragonstalker bracers. :/

What enchants do you guys slap on your bracers?

yeah, I am.

It's also far too imprecise for me unfortunately, so I'll keep on working it.

Anyway what is clear is that the anecdotal, modelling, & algebraic evidence all seem to suggest that 5/31/15 or 2/31/18 will outdamage 0/21/30 at all currently available levels of agility/RAP, and will do until we get a set with close to 500 agility on it (9/9 CS is 276).

Does Gunuku have the same gear as you?

4 mp5 is only useful while raiding, while +9 stam is good for both raiding and PvE.

Most hunters are really bad, though, so they may just not realize mp5 is good for a hunter.

Ha I would stick it straight into the hunter sheet, but I'll need to put Cryptstalker into it first.

Is your pet a wolf i.e. likely to be out and next to you the whole time? Otherwise there seems to be no good way to model that +50 ap.

One thing to consider is that if you actually use your pet for damage, the set effectively (due to happiness bonus) gives:
+50 AP to you
+62.5 AP to pet

I'm pretty sure that your combined damage will be higher with Cryptstalker than with 5/5 Striker's. Both the pet bonus and the Rapid Fire bonus are situational though, fight length might make the decreased Rapid Fire cooldown useless; fight mechanics might make pet unusable.
Very hard to model and compare...

Concerning the bracer enchant, I chose +7 intellect for my Dragonstalker ones. Mana / 5 was damn expensive, and I'm a raid monkey, so not all that interested in the extra stamina.
Mana regen for Cryptstalker though.

Hmm, 3% crit you mean, which with mortal shots (which even a 30Surv person is likely to have) should mean 1% crit is 1.3% damage?

I see one other big flaw in your calculation, you say his current dps is 600, and then add the crit % to that damage, when that damage allready has crit damage included in it, and you cant increase allready critting hits even more. So you have to assume a % crit too, and remove that. Say 33% crit before KI, means x+(x*33*2.3)/100 = 600, so 1.759x=600 or X = 341. Now, 1/3 of that 341 dps is allready "used up" in critting, so that leaves 227 dps to be affected by additional crit. Then add the 3% from KI and thats 227*3*2.3/100 added dps, i.e. 15.6 or so. 15.6 out of 600 is 2.6% damage increase.

PS. I often get lost in my assumptions, so any and all assumptions might be wrong, feel free to pick it appart and call me a moron, you'd not be the first, hehe.

Edited to add: After lactoses comment, I redid it with 25% crit instead of 33%, and it was slightly over 3%, so yeah, 1% crit is about 1% dps increase around a realistic amount of crit for that dps (though the dps itself is a bit unrealistically high).

With Mortal Shots, 1% crit = 1.3% base damage.
When you have about 25% crit, adding 3% more crit will only give you about 3% more damage.

In addition to what you said about crits already been factored in into the 600DPS thingy...
In the 600DPS, 14 Attack Power != 1 DPS
Quiver, Ranged Weapon Specialization, Barrage (if you're talking about cycles), Mortal Shots, crits in general... all reduce the amount of RAP needed for 1 DPS increase.

It's a messy one, yes...
Once I get buffs correctly implemented into my spreadsheet, I'll load it up using full tier 3 and see how MM vs LR compare.
I have a sneaky suspicion regarding Blessing of Kings...

yeah, it's kind of a mess :) there's a lot of fights in which pets will just die (faerlina, maexxna) without serious upkeep, and others that they can be dangerous (noth, grobbulus? (haven't tried), thaddius? (again, haven't tried)), so the 50 AP is pretty unreliable.

as for bracers - i have 4mp5 on my cryptstalker. i'm a mana regen junky.

Pets are fine on Thaddius, but given the nature of that fight they're really a drop in a very very big bucket.

they don't get polarity shifted? that's good to know. it's not so much the pet DPS i'm concerned with as the +50 AP buff from my pet just being alive heh.

then again, 3 minute rapid fire is nice for a fight with a 5 minute timed berserk...

I've used my pet fine on both Faerlina (died at ~20%), Maexxna (died at ~15%) and Noth (died below 10%). Just requires a bit more focus and asking a healer to throw a HoT every once in a while if possible. Patchwerk seems like a awesome pet fight as well :P

How are pets on Anub'Rekhan? When I was on the test server, I heard they spawned corpse scarabs if they died. Lately though, I've heard this isn't true, as well as pets not getting affected by the Locust Swarm... any info?

Edit: I can't spell Anub'Rekhan.

patchwerk is the definitive pet fight. noth your pet can get cursed - do they show up on decursive? faerlina and maexxna they require considerable upkeep to keep them alive, and i'm not entirely sure they're worth it.

if they can't get injected on grob, i guess they can at least hang out and give the 50 ap buff even if they can't do damage. :-P

Am I missing something? The way I read the buff is that it's +50 AP for both hunter/pet. I checked thottbot for spell information, but really couldn't get much in terms of how it's applied. You'll still keep the +50 AP if your pet is unsummoned no?

Anyway...I'm a survival hunter, and have been for a while. Always been a fan of it, the utility it provides, and the further progression of LR hunters. Especially with the gear that's coming our way (polearm+2H enchant). I'm of the opinion that the Marks tree needs a lot of work done on it (then again what class doesn't? Warrior? :P).

Anyway am I the only one that's looking forward to testing 5/5 Strikers w/ 4/9 CS? I know it'll be a while to make this happen, but it certainly leads to more posibilities to mix and match armor :) Really like wheer they're going with the set, and bonus'.

Just got back from a 3 week move and the guild is working on Naxx now. Killed quite a few bosses and should be well on the way to getting a few items I need. Still missing my boots for my 5/5, but how are you liking the quick rapid fire as well as extended length? :)

the buff currently (and this may be unintended) only works if you have your pet out and it's alive. both you and your pet get the "stalker's ally" buff, which is 50 attack power.

At Noth you can keep your pet on the adds for most of the fight. They do get cursed (and show up on decursive, as far as I know), but not if they stay out of range.
HoT from healer on Maexxna every stun is enough, should survive until the berserk.
Haven't killed Patchwerk yet, but pet is awesome there =)
For Faerlina, I press Follow and Dash to avoid as much of the RoF as possible, has worked so far :P
Although, 5/8 Dragonstalker probably helps a bit there - 147 buffed fire resistance.

i'll start trying to keep my pet out on some of the less pet-friendly fights - i'll just have to find a healer who IS pet friendly to watch over him :) well, that and enough inventory space for quail amidst my stacks upon stacks of mongoose pots :-P

once i get 4/8 CS i may break down and get a wolf :-P alas, poor fury, i knew him well.

Don't get rid of your old pet! You'll regret it forever. Just stable him if need be.