Don't get rid of your old pet! You'll regret it forever. Just stable him if need be.
oh i'm never getting rid of him. :-P but i just have one pet that i've ALWAYS used since the first month of release (king bangalash turned Fury, for those curious), and even the min-max'er in me can't bear to so much as stable him. but i just might break down and get a wolf to sit around and howl if i'm just using him for the 4 piece CS buff.
Stats with Aspect of the Hawk and Trueshot Aura active, Marksman Build (stats are adjusted for the other builds):
512 Agility
1660 RAP (using +50 from 4 piece Cryptstalker)
29.62% crit
De-/buffs added: Hunter's Mark (110 RAP), Grace of Air (77 agi) / BoK (10% stat increase), Mark of the Wild (16 agi), Mongoose Potion (25 agi, 2% crit), Ground Scorpok Assay (25 agi)
Horde: 110 RAP, 143 agility and 2% crit
Alliance: 110 RAP, 66 agility, 2% crit and 10% increase
DPS before armor, vs level 63 mob:
Horde MM: 754
Horde LR: 726
Horde LR with TSA: 744
----------------
Alliance MM: 743
Alliance LR: 715
Alliance LR with TSA: 734
Please note that my buff system might be a bit incorrect at the moment, as I haven't had enough time to thoroughly test it.
Used my own spreadsheet (posted link earlier, although I'm using a bit updated version, implemented a buff-system since last update) for this.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Used my own spreadsheet (posted link earlier, although I'm using a bit updated version, implemented a buff-system since last update) for this.
Yeah I've been using the hunter simulator v.1.06b.
It still seems to have a few gremlins in but I like being able to put in like 8 different gear types and analyse them.
As you can see from those numbers, 600dps++ is by no means out of the ordinary given Naxx gear, my sheet gives unbuffed figures with full CS
of around 630dps.
Originally Posted by Decker
Anyway...I'm a survival hunter, and have been for a while. Always been a fan of it, the utility it provides, and the further progression of LR hunters. Especially with the gear that's coming our way (polearm+2H enchant). I'm of the opinion that the Marks tree needs a lot of work done on it
I think a lot of people are fans of Survivalist, +10% health is something that scales and gives you a slight buffer, particularly when combined with deterrence, that can allow you slightly more margin for error.
The second comment here seems bizarre though - it's clear that LR + KI is not going to surpass the MM tree anytime soon from the evidence in this thread, and I'd certainly not say that the MM tree needed any work - outside of putting scatter shot somewhere in the SV tree, or making it a trainable skill like innervate, I think MM is one of the best talent trees across any class, and very very far from "in need of work".
The fact that we can sit here and come up with at least 3 or 4 totally viable raid builds seems to make me think that Hunters are fine - outside of Wyvern Sting which I have to admit I've never tried, there are talents in each tree that make me think "mmm that would be nice" and very few totally wasted points - the 2 points that "hardcore" PvErs need to chuck into Humanoid slaying to get further down the SV tree is hardly the end of the world.
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
The comment wasn't so much in that LR hunters will be the damage kings, but I think there are quite a few things that make it more appealing.
1) More mana back from the CS bonus. High crit = more mana back. I'd need to test this to find out if it's marginal or well worth the high crit efforts.
2) AGI affects many stats, AP? Not so much. It'll get to a point where the damage will be similar, but the LR hunter will have a lot more (5%+?) more dodge then the AP hunter.
These might seem insignificant to some, but they're important to myself.
In regards to the comments about the Marks tree? First two teirs are extremely weak. Survival has 6 items to choose from in the first 2 tiers with varied talent requirements. Marks has 4. In my survival build I spent 13 points in the first 2 tiers. Marksmanship I'd spend 10 if I could get away with it. Have an eleventh point just to progress further in the tree itself.
There are many ways to fix the issue. Move Improved Hunters Mark (or replace it completely) to tier 1. Move Hawk Eye and Aimed Shot to tier 2, and now we have 6 talents to play with. Tier 3 will have to be revamped completely though. The issue with marks in my opinion is there are less appealing talents to spend your points in, and I'm just a person that it really bothers me to spend points in items that I won't use.
You can correct me on my marks choices (see my sig for CT Profile...check "Naxx Dream Marks" for talents) but in the end I have 2/5 in Improved Concussive Shot. PVP it might be decent, but I just don't find myself using concussive shot enough to "spec" into it.
Improved stings is also very unappealing, and not worthy of my points. Everything in survival however I really like and feel confident in the points I've spent.
Obviously all classes will have their issues with talent distribution, but all previous concerns with the Marksmanship tree were never really addressed.
Anyway...to further seal the deal on this one as silly as it sounds I could see something more being done with hunters. I think we'll be able to get a ridiculous amount of dodge/hp/armor and it may get to the point where a few viable strategies are with hunter tanking. I actually have a setup for my "hunter tank" set (basically eskhanders collar, the 2% dodge trinket from AV, and that's about it) when I ping pong targets between an OT and myself. If they keep creating mobs that clear hate, have a limited fear, etc (and also cleves). It almost makes sense to have a hunter offtank it as we can gain hate without taking inital cleve damage. I often do this in AQ to keep a few squishies alive and initally it was more of a joke then anything it's became quite interesting to see it actually works. I have enough armor to mitigate some damage taken and high enough dodge to avoid most of it. Deterrence during the low HP times, or when a mob is just to much for my tender self.
The more I looked into hunter "offtanking" the more I thought about warrior offtanking and the use of dodge with a tank. With most of my non-sense talking one of our tanks is picking up a few items for this very cause.
The only problem with this type of build is that "precasting" or constantly healing the tank is a waste of mana, and when the tank does take damage he may tend to spike.
If mana isn't an issue then healing that is done won't generate hate (from my understanding, but I could be mistaken).
Anyway...to sum it all up dodge tanking ftw...until a warrior comes along with improved overpower :)
In regards to the comments about the Marks tree? First two teirs are extremely weak. Survival has 6 items to choose from in the first 2 tiers with varied talent requirements. Marks has 4. In my survival build I spent 13 points in the first 2 tiers. Marksmanship I'd spend 10 if I could get away with it. Have an eleventh point just to progress further in the tree itself.
There are many ways to fix the issue. Move Improved Hunters Mark (or replace it completely) to tier 1. Move Hawk Eye and Aimed Shot to tier 2, and now we have 6 talents to play with. Tier 3 will have to be revamped completely though. The issue with marks in my opinion is there are less appealing talents to spend your points in, and I'm just a person that it really bothers me to spend points in items that I won't use.
You can correct me on my marks choices (see my sig for CT Profile...check "Naxx Dream Marks" for talents) but in the end I have 2/5 in Improved Concussive Shot. PVP it might be decent, but I just don't find myself using concussive shot enough to "spec" into it.
Improved stings is also very unappealing, and not worthy of my points. Everything in survival however I really like and feel confident in the points I've spent.
Most of that is true. I find it hard to criticise efficiency. 2/5 in improved conc shot is a little bit of a pity for a pure raid spec build but I guess what I'm trying to say is that the real juice of each tree is from the 3rd tier down (or from Lethal Shots in the case of MM). The later talents in each tree are definitely attractive enough to make one or two slightly wasted points easy to take.
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
Most of that is true. I find it hard to criticise efficiency. 2/5 in improved conc shot is a little bit of a pity for a pure raid spec build but I guess what I'm trying to say is that the real juice of each tree is from the 3rd tier down (or from Lethal Shots in the case of MM). The later talents in each tree are definitely attractive enough to make one or two slightly wasted points easy to take.
My issue is that you should give enough early on and it'll be good for everyone. It's not even to the point of "taste" as i'd probably say 60-80% of raiding hunters would say that they have some wasted talent points, which I think is a huge problem.
On my Rogue however I love all my talent points I've spent. They have solid choices early in each of their trees, and also the same thing in the survival tree. I hope this doesn't derail with the mention of to rogue talents, but I think you see where I'm going.
Also helps that when I mention to see my signature I include it. Thought it would default ;)
every argument i see that touts LR as the superior build seems to eventually fall back on the neat little bonuses you get from the survival tree when it's revealed mathematically that MM in fact simply does more damage. the most important of those - survivalist - is easily accessible to a 5/31/15 build. the bonus dodge from LR is neat, but even at absurd agility levels it's not that meaningful. i'm at 559 unbuffed without LR atm, which would give me about 78 agi from LR, or around 2.5 dodge. is 2.5 dodge nice to have? sure. is it the difference between being a 'hunter tank' and wanting to feign death every time you pull aggro? not really. i do agree that the 6/8 CS bonus with higher crit is intriguing, but the increased value of that is only really relative to how likely it is that you'll run out of mana. with the amount of mp5 you get from CS already, an additional 4% or so chance to get 50 mana per shot doesn't seem like it outweighs each of those shots just hitting harder because you're MM spec'd, especially since there's easy ways to remedy mana problems (pots, runes, oils, etc) and less easy ways to remedy not-doing-as-much-damage problems.
edit: since you replied again above - efficiency is not even close to 'wasted' talent points. it's a fantastic talent and makes all your consumables/mana regen that much better because it's not just an expanded mana pool but a reduced cost on your spells. imp conc shot is a waste for most raiding situations, yes, but 2 less-than-optimal points is nothing to cry about, and it's nice to have in pvp. would it be nice if there were more attractive options, like imp hunter's mark and the imp sting talents...you know, doing anything? sure. but the tree as a whole doesn't waste much when you take the good stuff.
Yeah I love efficiency as well, and it's definitely not wasted talents, but I think we should feel the same way about all talents as we do about efficiency. It just seems like it'd be nice to have a "hard time picking" talents you know...having choices rather then being "I'm a raiding hunter...5/31/15", or "I raid and PVP 0/21/30".
Maybe I'm dreaming too much, or just so used to being a hunter and getting the shaft ;)
It just seems like it'd be nice to have a "hard time picking" talents you know...having choices rather then being "I'm a raiding hunter...5/31/15", or "I raid and PVP 0/21/30".
Maybe I'm dreaming too much, or just so used to being a hunter and getting the shaft ;)
Having two choices is better than one! Also you have don't have enought hit you can get 3/31/18 or something like that.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Yeah, so take the stats from the forums here (seen some details on it), and just use the armor information on the CTProfiles website, and you should be golden for "testing out" some numbers :)
At Noth you can keep your pet on the adds for most of the fight. They do get cursed (and show up on decursive, as far as I know), but not if they stay out of range.
Having recently obtained 4/9 CS, I was able to keep my pet out for most Naxxramas fights. Patchwerk is a no-brainer, I didn't even try on Grobbulus, Gluth doesn't seem difficult, and the pet is no affected by polarity shifts on Thaddius(though the Chain Lightning will chain off the pet, so it's best to just park the pet in an our-of-the-way area and tell it to "stay"). On Noth, telling your pet to park in a safe corner is also pretty easy and keeps it out of range of the curse and cleave(unless someone is dumb and drags Noth near your pet, which happened once, I just dismissed it before the curse went off). Heigan, seems all but impossible, and I'm not sure if Loatheb's dot will affect the pet or not(if it does, it's not even worth pulling out). Same with the 4 Horsemen. Razuvious is an easy pet fight, not sure about Gothink yet. Probably a safe spot there tho. Anub'rekhan, gonna try a position or two next time, Faerlina is easy, just park it out of range of her rain of fire. Maexxna, it may die eventually, but Chain Heal/PoH will keep it up for a while(if there is a priest in your group, the whole fight). So, Naxx isn't really all that pet-unfriendly, which is a good news for 4/9 CS.
If you aren't a goblin, why not?
If you are a goblin you rule
Used my own spreadsheet (posted link earlier, although I'm using a bit updated version, implemented a buff-system since last update) for this.
Yeah I've been using the hunter simulator v.1.06b.
It still seems to have a few gremlins in but I like being able to put in like 8 different gear types and analyse them.
As you can see from those numbers, 600dps++ is by no means out of the ordinary given Naxx gear, my sheet gives unbuffed figures with full CS
of around 630dps.
I've been using the 1.06b simulator too, and I'm suspicious that either I'm doing something wrong somehow(?) or that there's a flaw in the spreadsheet somewhere because it lists my dps 9 points higher with the LR spec I'm running with currently vs. 5/31/15 (525 with TSA vs. 534 with LR). Any ideas about what might be going on there?
Having recently obtained 4/9 CS, I was able to keep my pet out for most Naxxramas fights. Patchwerk is a no-brainer, I didn't even try on Grobbulus, Gluth doesn't seem difficult, and the pet is no affected by polarity shifts on Thaddius(though the Chain Lightning will chain off the pet, so it's best to just park the pet in an our-of-the-way area and tell it to "stay"). On Noth, telling your pet to park in a safe corner is also pretty easy and keeps it out of range of the curse and cleave(unless someone is dumb and drags Noth near your pet, which happened once, I just dismissed it before the curse went off). Heigan, seems all but impossible, and I'm not sure if Loatheb's dot will affect the pet or not(if it does, it's not even worth pulling out). Same with the 4 Horsemen. Razuvious is an easy pet fight, not sure about Gothink yet. Probably a safe spot there tho. Anub'rekhan, gonna try a position or two next time, Faerlina is easy, just park it out of range of her rain of fire. Maexxna, it may die eventually, but Chain Heal/PoH will keep it up for a while(if there is a priest in your group, the whole fight). So, Naxx isn't really all that pet-unfriendly, which is a good news for 4/9 CS.
Why wouldn't you just use your pet on a fight like Anub, and just pull him back before the Insect Swarm? Even Faelina, Maexxna, as a matter of a fact almost every boss I now use my pet on, even Twin Emp's.
After enough practice I have gotten good enough with my pet control that he is pretty much another one of the rogues in most fights. I carry Strength IV scroll for Patchwerk, etc to buff him.
With full buffs on my pet + battle shout from a warrior my pet reaches almost 1000atk power which gives him a sheet DPS of ~150. I can't display my cat's skills, but it is Claw(Rank 8), 120 Fire, 120 Shadow, 120 Frost, and the last 10 points or so in Stamina.
I use a 20/31/0 spec and with full buffs on my pet and the extra crit rate and damage, my cat (Broken Tooth) crits at a 22% rate, and his crits hit for quite a bit damage on a fully armor reduced boss.
To Renato: Pet doesn't get hit with Locust Swarm. SOmeone said pets wouldn't spawn scarabs so I kept mine out. Left him on ANub a few times through IS and never got hit with LS.
To Renato: Pet doesn't get hit with Locust Swarm. SOmeone said pets wouldn't spawn scarabs so I kept mine out. Left him on ANub a few times through IS and never got hit with LS.
Hmm, I may have to check and see next time we go kill him, I just assumed that he would get hit by it so I pulled him back once Anub started casting.
Dang.. I probably could have beaten the warrior if that was true! :-D
Steelfleece is the kiting hunter. And we never knew pets didn't get swarmed either so they were never in melee.
Yea, me and another hunter switch the kiting job, that was while I just a dps.
I can post some screenshots for other bosses, I just recently started screenshotting my DPS meters, but I think I got one for Cthun and Ouro, even though Ouro still is gunna take a lot of practice with the pet.. lol.. I just normally send him in during enrage.
Thank you Thug, I was just running a search for that.
Edit :
Lactose's spreadsheet and Thug's generate slightly different numbers, but both of them put my current 0/30/21 spec about 15-20 dps behind a 5/31/15 spec with the same gear. This is closer to what I was expecting to find, but I wanted some hard numbers to think about before I decided wether or not to respec now that we're starting to get closer to the dps checks in Naxx. Thanks fellas.
The only thing I'm not happy with when it comes to calculations at the moment is Improved Aspect of the Hawk. Other than that, it should be pretty decent :P
Damn, just remembered I haven't updated it with the PvP gloves. A curse on you for making me remember that I have more stuff to do ;)
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
I'd noticed that, actually, and I figured as much. I knew the TSA spec was going to come out ahead, I just wanted to have a good idea how far so I could make an informed decision.
Edit : Although if most of EJ's hunters are LR spec, I'm guessing it must not be as useless for raiding as the general wisdom would suggest.
07/12/06, 6:39 PM
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