Utgardsloki

EDIT: The following build is obsolete now that the "second-take" talent review has moved opportunity to tier 1 sub.




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Alternate title: How 1.12 and weapon expertise will save combat daggers
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First off, a brief introduction since this is my first post on these boards. I play a Dwarf rogue on the PvP Laughing Skull server, and am part of a raiding guild that has cleared through Thaddius. I'm an avid fan of rogue theorycraft, so upon discovering these boards I was immediately hooked. That said I would love to join in on the discussion and contribute to the enjoyment of our favorite class. Since this post is kinda huge I didn't want to gum up the rogue review thread and decided to create a new one.

A disclaimer about this post: this post is about daggers. I love daggers and use daggers whenever possible. This means I don't always have the best SS weapons available, since I'd much rather upgrade my daggers. Therefore, I'd like to get the most out of my daggers, particularly when raiding. With this in mind, I'll be avoiding quantitative comparisons between combat dagger builds and combat SS builds.

In this post, I compare two builds, the "original recipe" 16/25/10 combat daggers build (what I'm currently specced), and the "extra crispy" 11/31/9 combat daggers guild that will be possible in 1.12. This new build sacrifices a couple "bread and butter" talents from combat daggers (Lethality and one point in Opportunity) in exchange for another point in dagger spec, weapon expertise, and AR.

To analyze these two specs, I used my stats with raid buffs (including battleshout, BoK, and mongoose): 36% crit, 14% hit, and 1545 AP. My weapons are a Pugio and DFB (nothing better has dropped:(), resulting in an average white hit (tooltip damage) of 291 for the main hand and 224 for the off hand. The exact stats and weapons used aren't very important for this discussion.

I also used the following simplifying assumptions to compute dps:

SnD is kept up all the time, all energy spent on backstabs (reasonable for 2/3 imp SnD)
No cooldowns used (yet!)
10% enemy dodge rate (although I considered dodge it has little impact on the below results)
40% chance of glance, 30% damage reduction without +skill (I assume that boss dps is what we care about)
No armor mitigation


WHITE DPS

16/25/10

Unmodified white dps is given by (average tooltip damage)/(weapon speed)*(1.2 SnD bonus) for each weapon. For my setup this is (291/1.7+224/1.8)*1.2 = 355 dps. However, this unmodified swing can either crit, miss, get dodged, glance, or just "hit", so a modifier coefficient "M" needs to be included. This coefficient M is the sum over the probability for each type of hit times its respective damage multiplier. For the 16/25/10 build using my stats:

Probability of crit: 36% (2.0 multiplier)
Probability of miss: 10% (0.0 multiplier)
Probability of dodge: 10% (0.0 multiplier)
Probability of glance: 40% (0.7 multiplier)
Probability of hit: 4% (1.0 multiplier)

M = (0.36*2.0 + 0.10*0.0 + 0.10*0.0 + 0.40*0.7+0.04*1.0) = 1.04
White dps for 16/25/10
 

Contents

1 M*(unmodified white dps) 2 M*(unmodified white dps) 3 M*(unmodified yellow dps) 4 M*(unmodified yellow dps)

[top] M*(unmodified white dps)

1.04 * 355 dps = 369 dps


11/31/9

For the 11/31/9 build, we get an extra crit from dagger spec, a little crit, hit, and dodge mitigation from weapon expertise, and a increase in the glancing blow modifier:

Probability of crit: 37.2% (2.0 multiplier)
Probability of miss: 9.8% (0.0 multiplier)
Probability of dodge: 9.8% (0.0 multiplier)
Probability of glance: 40% (0.85 multiplier)
Probability of hit: 3.2% (1.0 multiplier)

M = (0.372*2.0 + 0.40*0.85 + 0.032*1.0) = 1.116
White dps for 11/31/9

[top] M*(unmodified white dps)

1.116 * 355 dps = 396 dps


YELLOW DPS

16/25/10

For a 10% dodge rate, for every 9 backstabs that land there is one that is dodged, meaning you get 9 backstabs for 9*60 + 1*12 = 552 energy, or one backstab for 552/9 = 61.33 energy. The backstab rate is therefore 10/61.33 = 0.163 /s. Backstab damage depends on the mainhand weapon and AP, as well as the number of points in opportunity. For a pugio, 1545 AP and 5/5 opportunity, the average backstab hits for 793. The unmodified yellow dps is the backstab damage times the backstab rate, or 793*0.163 = 129 dps. Again, an M coefficient needs to be constructed to convert unmodified yellow dps into actual yellow dps. (since dodges have been taken into account we only care about backstabs that land)

Probability of crit: 66% (2.3 multiplier with lethality)
Probability of hit: 34% (1.0 multiplier)

M = (0.66*2.3 + 0.34*1.0) = 1.858
Yellow dps for 16/25/10

[top] M*(unmodified yellow dps)

1.858 * 129 dps = 240 dps


11/31/9

The slight decrease in dodge rate due to +skill results in a negligible increase in backstab frequency. Average backstab damage goes down slightly because of one fewer point in opportunity, to 793*1.16/1.2 = 767 damage. Unmodified yellow dps becomes 767*0.163 = 125 dps. "M" changes because we add a little crit but reduce the crit bonus by dropping lethality.

Probability of crit: 67.2% (2.0 multiplier with lethality)
Probability of hit: 32.8% (1.0 multiplier)

M = (0.672*2.0 + 0.328*1.0) = 1.672
Yellow dps for 11/31/9

[top] M*(unmodified yellow dps)

1.672 * 125 dps = 209 dps


TOTAL DPS

Total dps for 16/25/10: 369 + 240 = 609 dps
Total dps for 11/31/9: 396 + 209 = 605 dps

The extra crispy 11/31/9 build loses 13% yellow dps and gains 7.3% white dps compared to the 16/25/10 build, overall sacrificing 1% total dps before cooldowns. This picture is reversed when one considers the effect of AR. AR can be conservatively modelled as double yellow dps for 15 seconds over a 6 minute fight, or a dps gain of 209*15/360 = 9 dps for the yellow dps value given above. This brings the total 11/31/9 dps to 614 dps, greater than that of the 16/25/10 build. In reality, AR contributes a larger fraction of dps because a) it can be stacked with Earthstrike/Jom Gabbar, b) fights don't last exactly 6 minutes, c) AR gives you combo points that add dps. Also, it should be noted that blade flurry benefits 11/31/9 more because it's effectively a multiplier to white dps.


CONCLUSION
On paper, 11/31/9 will be a better combat daggers build than 16/25/10 come 1.12. First, it offers better dps in raid boss encounters, as shown above. Second, the inclusion of AR is of enormous benefit for fights requiring "burst" dps (huhu, Ouro, C'thun, Maexxna). Also, the build is slightly more versatile (arguably) since it frees up 2 points in combat for a "fun" talent (improved sprint, endurance, or improved kick), and AR is useful for both PvP and solo PvE. Finally, the 11/31/9 build with an SS weapon can be played similarly to an SS combat build in PvP or small scale PvE; it loses weapon spec (although you can offhand a dagger), lethality, riposte, imp. evis, and agression, but gains 4 "fun" combat talent points and MOD.

Because of the possibility of the 11/31/9 build, the 1.12 review is a net positive for raiding dagger rogues, since it will increase our raid dps and our non-raid versatility.

Yar.

 

Tel

How do they compare if you have DS/ACLG in both builds?

 

Utgardsloki

Poorly since +skill caps at 10 and part of the 11/31/9 build's benefit comes from weapon expertise. However, with weapon expertise you can replace your ACLG with better gloves or resist gloves without taking a big hit.

Yar.

 

Tel

Sorry shouldve been clearer :)

What i meant to ask was, have you done any math to see how an 'old combat daggers' spec with ACLG/DS compares to a 'new combat daggers' spec with DS/WPN EXP and different gloves?

I was trying to work it through myself, but being honest, my maths isnt up to the task.

 

Utgardsloki

Good question. I worked through the same calculation using my gear but substituting ACLG + DS + pugio for 16/25/10 and BS gloves + DS + pugio for 11/31/09. The latter build still yields a higher dps, but the margin is a bit smaller (+1 dps out of ~660 vs. +4 dps out of ~610, conservatively in each case). Overall I feel that the change in dps, although positive, isn't as important as the added utility and burst capability gained by speccing AR. Doing the math in this case also makes me want a Death's Sting more than ever. :P

Yar.

 

vex

why bother with adrenaline rush? it is poor dps over time, additional you have to "waste" 2 points in sprint, deflection or sprint
since combat dagger is a pure pve-build i don't really care about burst damage. if necessary, i pop a thistle tea (100 energy vs 140-160 gained from AR...)

currently 17/24/10, i'll probably test a 15/27/9 build: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...40000000000000

dropping one point in opportunity, one point in ruthlessness and removing relentless strikes
gaining +5 weapon skill and 1% crit

losing those 25energy every 5cp's, 20% chance for an additional combo point and having a 174% backstab modifier instead of 180% seems probably worth getting weapon expertise

 

• frmorrison

Relentless strikes is one of the best talents outs there, you need to have it.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

red

I find it really tough to imagine giving up 3/3 imp snd. Having to spend energy on berserking, blade flurry and losing some on dodged backstabs, I am just not super excited about dropping a point from snd for weapon expertise.

 

Utgardsloki

This build is closer to classic combat daggers and you're correct in stating it has the best sustained dps, yielding 628 dps in my model. At the same time, AR daggers outpaces it in shorter fights (~3 minutes), is better for fights where burst is important (damage over a ~30s span), and has more utility outside of raiding. Overall I feel it's up to individual preference; both builds are better than classic combat daggers for raiding.

Yar.

 

Mem

I think demi is pretty on spot though I 'd keep 2 points in deflection instead of improved sprint. IIRC a parried attack results in a faster autoattack Furthermore I think avoidance is more important than a 5 min CD snarebreaker :). 2/3 is sufficient for keeping up SnD rather continuously. Its nevertheless pretty sad that one has to give up 2 points in opportunity.

 

Zagzil

How would 14/27/10 compare to this, it's basically switching a few points in Lethality for Weapon Expertise and 1% crit, a lot smaller of a trade off in this case.

 

• Wodin

The 2/3 cycle vs. the 3/3 cycle is the same, the 3/3 simply has allowance for real world stuff(and importantly for me right now, one feint because Death's Sting is a goddamn aggro magnet). The 14/27/10 build is marginally better versus bosses where you can be in melee range the entire time - any boss where you're taking time off from meleeing but getting energy back your standard 17/24/10 build will be better. The difference between the two dagger builds was about 3.3DPS unbuffed, so figure maybe another 3-4 when you're buffed up.

As far as the numbers in Utgardsloki's initial post, I'm very curious how you calculated the "yellow" DPS. The change from 16/25/10 to 11/31/9 seems to be purely the difference between backstabs with full lethality/opportunity and backstabs without, but you're also losing Relentless Strikes. Without RS, so it would seem like you can't maintain a consistent slice and dice cycle, so the standard rogue DPS assumption of "SnD is always up" goes out the window. Am I missing some sophistication here?

 

Mem

Imho there are enough AOE cleave attacks in the game justifying to increase your mitigation. Harmstringing claw tentacles otoh are a pretty unique feature. Another idea just popping up: its also possible to take endurance....a longer duration of evasion may also be usefull in certain situations. Its sad that you have to put 2 points in rather meaningless talents in a spec like combat dagger where you are starving for points.

 

◊ chalon

Wodin, if you look at his build he still has Relentless Strikes.

I don't know though, the problem is that while that build will have slightly better output vs 63s, vs 60s you lose Lethality completely and 1 point in Opportunity, which will cause a noticably significant reduction in DPS.

 

christide

Too bad they finally fixed cascading, eh?!

 

Digo

Based on the greater number of fights in new content where we are moving around, I'm probably just going to stick with 17/24/10. I still can't shake the feeling that the class designer plays a human sword rogue.

 

• Maestroquark

Pfft, I can't shake the feeling there isn't a single influence in the class design that has played rogues in a raid at all.

What are you waiting for, a certain shade of green?

 

Staarkhand

I'm definitely picking up the WE talent since unless am I missing some reason raiders should care about dps vs 60's other than epeening the DM's, dps vs bosses or dps vs trash is not a tough decision. The reliance on subpar +skill gear has to end sometime, and looking and the future of rogue gear in Naxx, I think that time is now.

To start with I'll probably stick with parry but try to note how often I would have liked a get out of snare free card and consider sprint.

While I was leaning towards Demi's build, I am intrigued to try out an AR build and see how she goes. Again, it's a matter of not just dps, but dps when it will benefit the raid. I'm not currently doing Naxx, but recent experience with Sartura, rogue Fankriss spawns, and Huhu make me think that access to 'on demand' damage and combo points will be more useful, even if I drop a spot on the meters. And the point about the new active trinkets is very valid.

If nothing else, it would be satisfying to actually have the review change the way I played even just a tiny bit.

 

Fellwraith

Can you still backstab 2 mobs at once with Bladefury up? (Sorry, I've been playing combat swords for over a year now and haven't paid much attention to dagger changes.) If so, the yellow burst damage bonus of AR could be quite useful in some situations.

 

• Wodin

If both of the mobs have their back to you(fairly rare these days). They nerfed the non-facing requirement on the second backstab after people were gibbing warriors by backstabbing their priests.

 

Adian

Why would any dagger rogue that is committed to Raiding go with any build other then ...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xfoLZ0ei0bEz0boV

....or some similar variant on it, maybe to get imp expose or pick up imp kick? All i know is that moving faster while stealthed hasn't helped me much since I left PvP...heck i rarely stealth in raids at all.

EDIT...

Hmm on second thought I am going to say that they posted this before the re-release of the talent change, that would make more since of anyone who cares.

In the End...we all meet the same Fate.

Adian <Overture>
http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...s/AdianTNG.png

 

Kytrarewn

I'm going 17/28/6 or 18/28/5 because I really don't feel that my playstyle will be able to take full advantage of Adrenaline Rush. For 15/31/5 to be better, you have to be able to use it every 5 minutes. If not, AR is inferior. In an ideal world, though, I'd agree that 15/31/5 is the superior build.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

Beliandra

I'm currently 20/31/0 sword combat specced, prior to that I was the classic combat daggers. I reckon I'll go to something like a 15/31/5 combat dagger/AR spec if I get another great dagger, AR is just gold. So I'm curious as to why you don't feel that you'd be able to take full advantage of it?

 

• frmorrison

Murder was changed to 4% increased humanoid damage (used to to be 2% to many types). A raiding dagger Rogue may prefer 2/3 Ruthlessness (however, are any of the Nax bosses humanoid? Instructor? 4 Horsemen?)

Personally, I will get Murder just to help in PvP/grinding activities.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Xard

this thread came back up and I was thinking for like 20 minutes "what on earth did he take 9 points in subtlety for??" and then I realized this was before the second talent review :)