GurgEdit: THIS IS NOT A FAKE PATCH NOTES THREAD. Yes, they are fake. You don't need to tell us. This is a thread about the theory behind adjusting warrior rage generation. Carry on.
(extract from FAKE 1.12 PTR notes that Blizzard has been hurridly deleting reference to on their boards)
"The mechanics of rage generation has been re-evaluated to bring the scaling of Warriors from levels 1-60 and beyond more in line with that of the other classes. Previously, Warriors gained rage from dealing damage based on a formula that took into account damage dealt and character level. Warriors will now generate a flat amount of rage per hit based on a new formula that takes into account the type of weapon (two-handed, mainhand, or offhand) and character level. Warriors from 1-60 should see more reliable rage generation, while Warriors with endgame itemization will see their rage generation brought down to more manageable levels. We have deemed this change necessary to preserve game balance as we move towards the release of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade and the increased level cap that will arrive with it."
As a warrior, but also someone who plays and knows a reasonable amount about other classes, I can see this having a lot of both positives and negatives. One of the more significant changes that have been made to the game's underlying mechanics. Honestly a LOT of it depends on what numbers they choose, and how those play out on the PTR.
For the top 10% of warriors its going to be a clear nerf to our immediate status quo. Also a little frustrating that Tseric was talking about them making rage generation options more versatile in 1.12, and not giving us TM. There is once again nothing in here addressing that. A top geared DW Fury warrior generates as much rage as they can use with everything on cooldown. If aggro isn't a problem horde-side they just spam hamstring to dump surplus and proc windfury, with close to max ragebars.
Long-term though, we DO scale better than other classes, a trend which has been the main reason why we keep getting nerfed repeatedly. Is this going to bring warrior scaling back in line with other classes, and perhaps even allow for slight buffs in other areas? (I hear the temperature in hell is plumeting too).
If this means rage gain off hitting PWS I can foresee a lot of angry priests.
Not adding anything to topic, but is it really safe to assume this isn't fake because it has "too many minor bugfixes"? Also, do you have a link to the rest of the patchnotes?
The boards are being spammed with them, and getting deleted, so links are dying pretty quickly.
I do have the whole thing, but this change to game mechanics and the positives/negatives are what I was interested in discussing here. The qqing and whining on the Blizz forums will drown out any meaningful commentary.
Originally Posted by Dozer
The version I read said that rank 14 weapons were going to be upgraded to legendary quality. I stopped reading there.
No offense, but those notes are so horribly fake it's not even funny. The wording is off in several places, there's typos all around and some of the changes are so ridiculous you'd be out of your mind to believe them. Ie:
Epic quest series have been added for all classes with the exception of Hunters and Priests (who already had epic quest series in the game).
When they explicitly stated that they thought the Hunter/Priest epic quests were a mistake and wouldn't be adding similiar ones, or:
Token systems have been implemented in Molten Core and Blackwing Lair. Tier 1 and Tier 2 Class Armor sets are now acquired like the Tier 3 sets are through turn-in quests. Bosses that previously dropped the armor have had their loot tables revised. In addition, new items that appeal to a greater variety of playstyles have been added to ALL raid instances as both quest rewards and drops!
FYI all of the minor bug fixes in that patch are clearly listed in the "Bugs we are looking into". All of them. There is no way Blizzard will concievably fix every single widely documented bug in one patch.
It's also posted by the same guy who did the fake Druid patch notes.
The boards are being spammed with them, and getting deleted, so links are dying pretty quickly.
I do have the whole thing, but this change to game mechanics and the positives/negatives are what I was interested in discussing here. The qqing and whining on the Blizz forums will drown out any meaningful commentary.
Originally Posted by Dozer
The version I read said that rank 14 weapons were going to be upgraded to legendary quality. I stopped reading there.
hmm, mine doesn't.
Alright, assuming they're real, I don't see how a warrior would really see anything positive in those patch notes. What I got from that is that "the better your gear gets, the worse your damage is going to scale". Sounds like a nerf across the board, and a pretty bad one at that.
The notes are horribly fake, but if you think Blizzard is going to continue to allow Fury warriors to output the amount of damage they can do with the current way rage generation scales, it's wishful thinking.
The best tanking class should not also be potentially the best DPS class with a respec and gear swap. That is poor balancing and poor design.
They will be doing something that normalizes rage generation. Equal gear, ability, and buffs, a Fury Warrior should do 80% of the damage of a Rogue in raids. For the sake of balance and the sake of usefulness of rogues. And before someone says OH BUT ROGUES HAVE STUNLOCK AND SO MANY TRICKS. Not in raids we don't.
Pretty much, there's really no other way to handle the balance besides nerfing Fury Warriors, I expect they're handling the situation in the expansion though, because making a drastic class change right now is likely a bad idea without a beta test.
No offense, but those notes are so horribly fake it's not even funny. The wording is off in several places, there's typos all around..
Not saying they're not fake (they are, for sure), but always bear in mind the time that a set of patchnotes got leaked.. countless people scoffed and declared that they were fake, due to the typos and grammatical errors.. and they turned out to be 100% accurate, typos and all. :)
While the patch notes are quite suspect, we can still discuss the suggested gameplay change. The change is a bit more likely because they've been hinting it for a while now(as in, reviewing rage generation).
The suggested change is stupid, that's my immediate response. Like anyone else, I hate seeing my dps nerfed. This isn't going to affect the top 10%. It's going to affect anyone who's farming MC or above. I can almost already hit BT and WW on cooldown on most fights. It's quite common that I can't use my rage fast enough. I don't have any gear from BWL or above.
Supposedly, Blizzard has a better vision for their game, but I just don't see the point of this. Maybe for horde warriors, more rage is more damage, but for alliance, it's a terrible rage dump. I guess the last point to consider is that dps warriors shouldn't be putting out as much damage as dps primary classes. Which is an ok point, as long as the secondary roles for said classes don't become as important as tanking. In the end though, with the amount of tanking I do on raids, I'm going have trouble playing my warrior anymore if his dps gets nerfed.
but if you think Blizzard is going to continue to allow Fury warriors to output the amount of damage they can do with the current way rage generation scales, it's wishful thinking.
The best tanking class should not also be potentially the best DPS class with a respec and gear swap. That is poor balancing and poor design.
A deviation from the established norms isn't inherently bad design. I've yet to see Patchwerk meters from a top raiding guild that actually had fury warriors consistenty beating the top combat dagger rogues with comparable gear... and that spec just got a DPS increase.
As far as I can tell, with current itemization and talents available in the game, the ONLY class that couldn't output 400+ dps in a raid situation is Paladin. This could be inaccurate, but we know Feral druids and shadow priests can, pretty sure elemental shamans can too. Doesn't make them 'best', but Blizz has been trying to avoid as much pigeonholing of classes as they reasonably can (given the confines of players min-maxing)
The notes are horribly fake, but if you think Blizzard is going to continue to allow Fury warriors to output the amount of damage they can do with the current way rage generation scales, it's wishful thinking.
The best tanking class should not also be potentially the best DPS class with a respec and gear swap. That is poor balancing and poor design.
They will be doing something that normalizes rage generation. Equal gear, ability, and buffs, a Fury Warrior should do 80% of the damage of a Rogue in raids. For the sake of balance and the sake of usefulness of rogues. And before someone says OH BUT ROGUES HAVE STUNLOCK AND SO MANY TRICKS. Not in raids we don't.
While I agree with you for the most part, especially since it seems agro sensitive fights seem to be going away. But I don't think taking out your rage on warriors(get it, rage? lol) is the right attitude. Nerfing warriors still leaves lots of mages to compete with. Even after this patch, does doing 10% more damage, best case, than mages justify the extra healing the rogues take?
I've yet to see Patchwerk meters from a top raiding guild that actually had fury warriors consistenty beating the top combat dagger rogues with comparable gear... and that spec just got a DPS increase.
A very valid point. Rage normalisation seems borne out of "those" videos, like Pat and Maydie where the class is being "balanced" around the exceptions.
I don't mind competing with mages on DMs because they are pretty much a pure DPS class on raids (well, and vending machines of course). They both have specific advantages and disadvantages to each other, but at the heart of it they both are just sitting there and doing DPS. What other class can say that they are potentially the "best" at 2 of the 3 raiding roles?
No offense, but those notes are so horribly fake it's not even funny. The wording is off in several places, there's typos all around and some of the changes are so ridiculous you'd be out of your mind to believe them. Ie:
Epic quest series have been added for all classes with the exception of Hunters and Priests (who already had epic quest series in the game).
When they explicitly stated that they thought the Hunter/Priest epic quests were a mistake and wouldn't be adding similiar ones, or:
Token systems have been implemented in Molten Core and Blackwing Lair. Tier 1 and Tier 2 Class Armor sets are now acquired like the Tier 3 sets are through turn-in quests. Bosses that previously dropped the armor have had their loot tables revised. In addition, new items that appeal to a greater variety of playstyles have been added to ALL raid instances as both quest rewards and drops!
Yeah, right.
Doesn't make it automatically fake just because there's typos. First drafts often have grammatical/spelling errors.
Also, it's not like blizzard hasn't said things before, only to change their minds. (*cough* we'll never make eviscerate scale cause it's not possible *cough*)
EDIT: That's not to say that it can't also be fake. Just that I wouldn't disregard something because of a typo or contradiction here and there.
I think whether or not these notes are faked, it's safe to say there will be some changes to rage. I think it's a shame because any normalisation will surely make the rage mechanic more boring and bland (ala Energy - there was potential there). How it will affect DPS remains to be seen, if it's just a case of having less rage to dump (in HS/Hamstring) then it won't have a dramatic impact on how I currently raid. If we're going to struggle to find rage just to use our cooldown abilities this is going to seriously impact the class. I seriously doubt the changes will be that severe though, afterall such changes would destroy the class in PvP.
The even bigger question is how will any changes impact tanking.
but if you think Blizzard is going to continue to allow Fury warriors to output the amount of damage they can do with the current way rage generation scales, it's wishful thinking.
The best tanking class should not also be potentially the best DPS class with a respec and gear swap. That is poor balancing and poor design.
As far as I can tell, with current itemization and talents available in the game, the ONLY class that couldn't output 400+ dps in a raid situation is Paladin. This could be inaccurate, but we know Feral druids and shadow priests can, pretty sure elemental shamans can too. Doesn't make them 'best', but Blizz has been trying to avoid as much pigeonholing of classes as they reasonably can (given the confines of players min-maxing)
A Paladin can easily hit 400 dps depending on what they are fighting and if they have aggro. They cannot do concentrated DPS sure, but some of their best DPS comes from actually tanking a few mobs with a porcupine setup. Their sustained DPS is shit otherwise, but great in burst.
The notes are horribly fake, but if you think Blizzard is going to continue to allow Fury warriors to output the amount of damage they can do with the current way rage generation scales, it's wishful thinking.
Fury warrior damage is naturally limited by agro and cooldowns. As far as i know best geared fury warriors already approached a situation when their abilities are constantly on cooldowns. They can only dump rage with cleave and HS, that don't generate rage and have extra threat component.
The best tanking class should not also be potentially the best DPS class with a respec and gear swap. That is poor balancing and poor design.
You have a point there. But i don't like the consequences for raids. Currently warriors have amazing stackbility in raids. They can offtank or dps according to gear. If blizzard will kill this stackability we will have to switch raid composition based on the current enctounter. I don't like that at all.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
but if you think Blizzard is going to continue to allow Fury warriors to output the amount of damage they can do with the current way rage generation scales, it's wishful thinking.
The best tanking class should not also be potentially the best DPS class with a respec and gear swap. That is poor balancing and poor design.
As far as I can tell, with current itemization and talents available in the game, the ONLY class that couldn't output 400+ dps in a raid situation is Paladin. This could be inaccurate, but we know Feral druids and shadow priests can, pretty sure elemental shamans can too. Doesn't make them 'best', but Blizz has been trying to avoid as much pigeonholing of classes as they reasonably can (given the confines of players min-maxing)
A Paladin can easily hit 400 dps depending on what they are fighting and if they have aggro. They cannot do concentrated DPS sure, but some of their best DPS comes from actually tanking a few mobs with a porcupine setup. Their sustained DPS is shit otherwise, but great in burst.
I would assume he means single target dps.
I can hit 1k dps as a paladin by using consecrate on a pack of imps in MC with ZHC and vengence up but I doubt that is a situation we should balance the class about.
Its extremely tough to maintain 400dps on a single target as a paladin for any length of time greater than about 30s without an obscene amount of consumables.
The notes are horribly fake, but if you think Blizzard is going to continue to allow Fury warriors to output the amount of damage they can do with the current way rage generation scales, it's wishful thinking.
The best tanking class should not also be potentially the best DPS class with a respec and gear swap. That is poor balancing and poor design.
They will be doing something that normalizes rage generation. Equal gear, ability, and buffs, a Fury Warrior should do 80% of the damage of a Rogue in raids. For the sake of balance and the sake of usefulness of rogues. And before someone says OH BUT ROGUES HAVE STUNLOCK AND SO MANY TRICKS. Not in raids we don't.
Hey, I'm a Hunter. I can only do DPS in a raid and I can't really use my pet or stings bar serpent sting. I think you should nerf other classes because I can't use parts of my class in a raid environment. Your argument is stupid.
Edit: In addition to this, I presume you're a Rogue who only raids; why on earth would you want to nerf a class that helps you raid significantly?
The version I read said that rank 14 weapons were going to be upgraded to legendary quality. I stopped reading there.
I saw the same one. There's 2 versions of these "PTR patch notes" floating around, one on the druid forums I think, and the other on the PvP forums over at the WoW site. One of them has class changes (the pvp one) and the other one (on the druid board) just has bug fixes and some other random stuff. The druid one is where the "legendary pvp sets" is mentioned. Seemed like a load of shit to me too when I saw that.
Did you also notice the part where they supposedly changed Enchanting to where you need Artisan enchanting to be able to DE epic items now?
07/13/06, 11:45 PM
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