If you feel you aren't doing enough as a frost mage, switch to fire. You'll have a lot more new stuff to manage with mana conservation being at the top of the list.
I feel that there are people who play their classes much better than others. Some classes lend themselves to this (Warriors, Shamans) but some other classes just don't have much to do because their toolbox of toys doesn't have much impact in a raid environment (mages, rogues, hunters). Part of it is situational and Blizzard has been doing a lot better job of involving different things from different classes (stunlocking Sartura, mind control on Instructor) to mix things up. I think the design of the encounter has much more to do with it than the class itself.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
Funny thing is that my main till lately was a shaman, and one of (if not the) best geared healing shaman on the server, but I didn't feel like I was contributing enough to raids anymore given the direction new encounters are going. So I've rerolled a warrior and am getting rapidly geared to tank for the guild. Healing gets pretty boring too though, especially in MC and BWL - you just pick a spot to stand for the most part and then stare at a spreadsheet of names until the fight is over, maybe run around a little bit but not too much involved otherwise once you know the mechanics of your class and spells.
This is somewhat of a continuation of the math v art mini-derail in the class roles/personality thread, but I think you're selling yourself a little short. You can categorize a class's role on a fight as either proactive (damage) or reactive (tanking, healing). Reactive roles by nature require a lot of judgement calls and decision-making during the fight. By contrast, while it might seem like a proactive role doesn't require as much thought, I think the thought is just displaced. For a class that focuses on maximizing output, the difficult decisions occur before the fight - see the multitude of theorycraft DPS threads for deep analysis of choices in gear, spec, and attack patterns (delta gogo). While it sounds like more advanced encounters are spreading around a share of that personal responsibility to everyone, I think the primary analogy between proactive:reactive roles :: theorycraft:judgement decisions still holds up.
I've gone an entire MC run hitting nothing but my Frostbolt/ZHC/RotA/Berserking macro for the entire 110 minutes (just to see how I would do on the DM) and come up 4th place.
Don't sign your posts it is silly.
What else can you do in MC but FB, besides Blizzard on the Dog packs, and maybe on the Fire packs?
Frost is mainly about Frostbolt, but if you want more buttons to press, go Fire. You have Combusion, Fireball, Scorch, Fireblast, and you have to worry about using your mana well.
DPS classes are easier to play than Healers/Tanks, but that is the way it is.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I feel similar, any time I attempt to play a dps class, or watch a video from the POV of a dps class, I get bored in a few seconds flat. Then if a DPS class logs on my shammy, they freak out at all the hard stuff to do.
Ya you can spam rank7 LHW with a emergency monitor macro on trash just fine. But try that on most boss encounters (even in MC) and youll be oom and your group will be dead. Same with totem rotations and placement. I cant even begin to fathom the number of times ive been flame breathed or shadowflamed when replacing a totem. Ive seen shammys get swapped into the Main tank group on a mana tide rotation, without remembering to clear tranquil air. Ive seen shammys leave a totem in the fankriss tunnel, pulling 6 extra groups of respawns. Playing a shammy is fun because its micro-management. There is always something to do.
The only class with more to manage in my opinion is a late-game tank.
DPS is just soo boring. Prolly why fraps files of boss fights are always DPS POV and prolly why they have such a love of big numbers. Gives em something exciting to do.
Hell, I have a mage in my guild that likes to fraps stuff. He checks his friends list during combat. Opens the character screen to use a trinket, or organizes his bags. And this is on our Sartura videos!
I think this generally happens to DPS classes, because they rarely have to be reactive. This allows a given DPS class to find and continuously exploit the most efficient DPS method; this is usually reduced through ingenuity to a few buttons, at most. This is a great contrast to classes that have to be reactive, chiefly tanks and healers. Stuff is constantly happening to them or those they're responsible for. Having to adapt to a changing situation is necessarily more complex.
The only deviation from this is when situations go pear-shaped, and this doesn't burden active classes more than reactive.
Personally, playing the PRES BUTAN PEW PEW PEW class... I feel I do less than any other class. I try to make up for it by involving myself whereever possible (pulling, kiting, gimmick offtanking), but at the end of the day, I spend most of the time keeping my cycle rhythm together, and it's about as simple as it gets...
And yet, some DPS classes consistently do a better job of it than others. They are more attentive and are constantly striving to maximize their damage. We have two players who clearly come to mind in this category in EJ:
One mage would pretty much always be the top mage on DMs for any sustained period of time that included trash clears, and would vie for the top spot on any individual boss fight. He stopped playing in January, right when 1.09 hit. He came back ~6 weeks ago, still wielding a Staff of Dominance and using all his old gear, with most of our mages sporting Femur or Shadow Flame and either Enigma or optimized Netherwind+jewelry sets. And he still topped DMs, five months later.
One of our warriors topped DMs on any given MC clear as Arms/Fury with an OEB last fall. He specced Fury and still topped DMs. Specced back to Arms, still topped DMs. Then back to Fury using a Deathbringer mainhand and Perdition's offhand, and consistently outdamages Ashkandi warriors, Crul/Pugio Fury warriors, and so forth. There have been many long discussions of "how the fuck does he do that and how can we get everyone else to do what he's doing" but no one's quite been able to bottle his particular brand of DPS insanity.
You can do adequately just spamming one button as a DPS class all fight long, just like you can do adequately spamming flash heals on EM or the tank, but it's simply false to say that player skill and attentiveness don't count for quite a lot.
You're a mage. And, for the most part, you have one responsibility: dps without pulling aggro. Sure, there are fights where you'll have to sheep mobs/MC'd people (Skeram), or decurse (many bosses in MC), the need for an occasional Counterspell (C'thun or Bug Trio), and the always need for AOE. But most of all you'll be DPS.
Mages used to have it harder - they used to have to manage their aggro or surroundings to ensure that they didn't pull the boss or end up dead, they used to have to work to tweak their spec and play styles to ensure they had a steady stream of mana available. But 1.11 has changed all that. You can chain cast all day and aggro is a thing of the past (especially if you're alliance - where threat reduction talents being additive instead of multiplicative really really make an impact). Your survival ability has been exponentially increased by the freeing up of 10-15 points in Arcane to be put into Frost.
The only thing I can say is this: Don't get all impressed by your damage meters (a la 4th in MC)... truly mediocre mages totally own the DM these days.
The guild I recently joined is up to Nef in BWL and I was 4th on DMs last night on Onyxia using a Bone Slicing Hatchet and a Serathil and entirely blue gear sans the Dark Iron I was wearing for FR. I cheated by having 312 axe skill, I used a 2her to WW during whelps, and I used Berzerker rage to break out of her fear instantly. Also, Death Wish + Reckless during execute phase is mad hax. Granted some of the heavy DPS hitters were absent but there is no way I should be outdamaging some of the people there. Good strategy and execution of damage methods > gear, no matter what people tell you.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
One of our warriors topped DMs on any given MC clear as Arms/Fury with an OEB last fall. He specced Fury and still topped DMs. Specced back to Arms, still topped DMs. Then back to Fury using a Deathbringer mainhand and Perdition's offhand, and consistently outdamages Ashkandi warriors, Crul/Pugio Fury warriors, and so forth. There have been many long discussions of "how the fuck does he do that and how can we get everyone else to do what he's doing" but no one's quite been able to bottle his particular brand of DPS insanity.
Thats because dps warriors who also offtank are the hardest class to play well and are played best by twitchy, theorycraft, min-maxer elitist know-it-alls who jump around a lot. ;)
I've gone an entire MC run hitting nothing but my Frostbolt/ZHC/RotA/Berserking macro for the entire 110 minutes (just to see how I would do on the DM) and come up 4th place.
Don't sign your posts it is silly.
What else can you do in MC but FB, besides Blizzard on the Dog packs, and maybe on the Fire packs?
Frost is mainly about Frostbolt, but if you want more buttons to press, go Fire. You have Combusion, Fireball, Scorch, Fireblast, and you have to worry about using your mana well.
DPS classes are easier to play than Healers/Tanks, but that is the way it is.
I really don't agree with this at all.
Playing a dps class is just as complex as tanking or healing if you're doing it right. I make thousands of decisions about where to position myself, when to burn a pot/tuber/bandage, when to burn a cooldown (vanish, AR, and evasion all on 5 minute timers), etc. Not to mention the fact that I do have to react to the environment the same as anyone else (nef shaman call, tank de-aggro, interrupting heals, etc.) - especially if I'm a main assist that night. It's not like a rogue just sits there and spams 2 for backstab all instance long...
If you're playing the class right and trying to maximize your output it's just as "hard" as any other role. I think where this misconception of "it's easy" comes in is that people can slack-off for a lot of fights in MC and the raid can still succeed, the fights are just longer. I'm somewhat glad that blizz puts dps tests in the game so that people actually value the good players vs the bad ones. Maybe it's more forgiving at first when you're raiding, but dps can be the cause of a wipe just like any other class when it screws up.
You don't decurse in MC? You don't ever have to cc or counterspell? :blink:
Shaman, for instance, have to worry about who and when to heal, whether their totems are placed correctly so that folks in their group are benefitting as much as possible, what ranks of heals to use, when to burn that nature's swiftness-healing wave mash, etc. They do much the same thing as me (choose a target, cast a spell), but for them, they have the added complexities of responsibility, timing, and effectiveness.
thaen
You didn't mention "mana management" for shamys which is as important as stayin' alive or healing at the right time the right person.
Back in the day, playing a poor geared shaman in Dire Maul with a poor geared group was really a test to prove yourself worthy.
Doing damage and healing is definitely 2 entirely different things.
Everyone has to react to unexepected situations and occasionally perform intelligently without instruction.
DPS though is about extracting the absolute maximum from your character which requires both attention and a good deal of analysis.
Healing is almost fully on the reaction side of things. There is some analysis in healing but in the end it is not as meaningful as dps. I mean I can determine that it is appropriate for a moderately sized, efficient heal with slow casting time and be right. Then the tank takes a rare crit and the entire dynamics of my decision are thrown off. Healing is reactionary in nature and once even basic familiarity with an encounter is achieved it becomes 'easy.'
DPS on the other hand is very analytical in nature and the player has the majority of control. If I had known way back when how things would unfold I would almost certainly have chosen a dps class as I feel it best suits my interests.
Totem management adds some interesting factors but all in all I still think it is much easier to transition from average -> good as a healer than as dps.
From a priest's POV, often your ability is reliant on how long it takes you to recognize someone is getting beaten up, target that person and begin casting a heal.
There's almost an infinite ceiling of things to be aware of. If you're in the MT healing group on a fight like TE, you just spam heal on your tank and run whenever you see a boom bug or blizzard. If you're in the bug-group, you heal your warriors, fill in if a MT healer dies, help out healing the dps melee in case of a nasty blizzard all while being completely responsible for the bugwars.
On a fight like Noth, where he blinks, gets hit by a hunter etc, being able to be cogniscent(sp) of this and shielding the hunter / begin casting a solid heal on him that will end after Noth gives him a good 4k hit, makes you a good healer.
Once again, the amount of things to be aware allows seperation from good healer to bad healer. Being the first one to allow a DPS to survive from getting agro on a random mob like a mindflayer-pre-c'thun-trash, or one of those sartura bitches etc is what makes a good healer.
Beyond that, we have to worry about mana efficiency and mob DPS. Right now my guild is on Patchwerk(first tries last night, got to 52% wuwu) and we're doing all sorts of theorycrafting to try and avoid running out of mana. For that the healer's skill is to use the lowest rank of heal possible without letting the tank die, and being prepped to flash heal/NS/shield and lose valuable mana in case the tank gets too low.
What pisses me off about DPS is that some of them, like Praet said, will be consistently high on the DPS meter despite others having equivalent or better gear.
One of our warriors topped DMs on any given MC clear as Arms/Fury with an OEB last fall. He specced Fury and still topped DMs. Specced back to Arms, still topped DMs. Then back to Fury using a Deathbringer mainhand and Perdition's offhand, and consistently outdamages Ashkandi warriors, Crul/Pugio Fury warriors, and so forth. There have been many long discussions of "how the fuck does he do that and how can we get everyone else to do what he's doing" but no one's quite been able to bottle his particular brand of DPS insanity.
Thats because dps warriors who also offtank are the hardest class to play well and are played best by twitchy, theorycraft, min-maxer elitist know-it-alls who jump around a lot. ;)
Skill > gear > spec
What's exactly difficult about playing a dps warrior?
Use deathwish, bloodthirst, and whirlwind when they are up. If you feel like, switch and overpower when you want. When the mob is sub 20 mash a single button. Use HS or hamstring when you have >50 rage.
We don't have to manage mana carefully to sustain damage like a mage. We don't have to pay attention to slice and dice and other finishers like rogues, nor fret about positioning. Warlocks go through a whole bunch of shit.
Your gear and spec selection is important. Beyond that, gear takes care of itself.
Healing is an incredible challenge. Tanking can be. But dpsing as a warrior? (or really any class for that matter)
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
The guild I recently joined is up to Nef in BWL and I was 4th on DMs last night on Onyxia using a Bone Slicing Hatchet and a Serathil and entirely blue gear sans the Dark Iron I was wearing for FR. I cheated by having 312 axe skill, I used a 2her to WW during whelps, and I used Berzerker rage to break out of her fear instantly. Also, Death Wish + Reckless during execute phase is mad hax. Granted some of the heavy DPS hitters were absent but there is no way I should be outdamaging some of the people there. Good strategy and execution of damage methods > gear, no matter what people tell you.
The first raid I went on, I topped the meters by about 1.5% with a barbarous blade thru 4 bosses. I picked up an OEB off garr and was up by 2.5% when we reached domo.
It's simply people not paying attention and putting effort.
On a fight like Noth, where he blinks, gets hit by a hunter etc, being able to be cogniscent(sp) of this and shielding the hunter / begin casting a solid heal on him that will end after Noth gives him a good 4k hit, makes you a good healer.
Once again, the amount of things to be aware allows seperation from good healer to bad healer. Being the first one to allow a DPS to survive from getting agro on a random mob like a mindflayer-pre-c'thun-trash, or one of those sartura bitches etc is what makes a good healer.
I agree with what you are saying, but at the same time you could fit the important things to be aware of in the Noth encounter on a notecard. Once you are consistently healing the correct targets and the correct time there is not much else you can do to "squeeze extra juice" out of your character. DPS also has to make intelligent decisions pertaining to targets etc ., but they also get the added depth of min/maxxing energy/rage useage, cooldowns and whatnot.
This thought came to me when warrior friend of mine recently started switching to DPS and was looking for a good way to measure his progress against other DPS classes. We were looking for a good single target, stand-there-and-beat-on-it boss fight to use as a benchmark.
We had a decent amount of trouble finding one. (Well, one where he wasn't required to off tank something.) (I think we settled on Flamegor-- he was frequently a tank for Ebonroc.)
What does that mean? To me, it showed exactly what Gurg was saying-- that for most fights, DPS isn't just a matter of gearing up and pushing your attack buttons. Topping the damage meters is almost always going to consist of manuvering around each fights' little speed bumps in such a way as to make the most of your opportunities, and that's a reactive mental process just like tanking and healing.
I think the difference between healing and dps is that while dps can be easier, it is more important to maximize dps. It's much easier and less noticable to get by with pretty sub-par healing, but if dps starts lagging, the whole fight will unravel.
it's easy to get by as just about any DPS class without doing much work. it takes considerably more effort to squeeze every point of damage you can out of the class. while we were looking for hunters recently since we had a few of our regulars quit the game, i was watching boss fight damage meters pretty intently and saw a pretty wide disparity. being a passable DPS'er and a good dps'er are very different things.
I'd say that mages were easy to play, except for the Stion problem that gurg brought up. I'm still more than a little puckered when going into any raid zone because of the way agro worked out back in those days, I can remember on many occasions pulling agro and dying on things like molten giants by just spamming AM. That, and learning BWL (I can remember quite clearly pulling agro on broodlord for a heartbreaking wipe) which is also very agro sensitive.
If you're being cynical like your average wowgeneral mouthbreather you could say that my job as a frost mage is just hitting 3 over and over again, but it's a lot more than that. It's cocing at good times when mobs are clumped when you're not going to get caught in a cleave. It's knowing how well you can DPS without pulling agro and staying alive through the now refreshingly varied situations that come up in raids. Some people have better aptitudes for this than others. I remember the Kazzak kill where we "discovered" crauch, or how the fuck did this guy come in 3rd behind stion and khazal?
It seems that the raid game has changed a lot since we all first started, it used to be that ranged DPS could space out chaincasting or autoshoots while the healers had to have some situational awareness. I think blizzard has been working to make everyone have a lot more to pay attention to than how much health the mob has left with their new encounter designs.
Well, APPARENTLY, there's nothing hard when playing a dps warrior. Didn't stop me from outdmging every warrior in my guild on 90% of the fight with an untamed blade and AQ20/ZG dps gear(since I was a main tank I was spending points on tanking gear, not kekeke dps gear). I was beating our best geared dps warrior on damage meter on almost every fight, I was even sometimes beating him without a windfury totem. The reason? He was a dps warrior because he sucked at tanking, and sadly, he sucked at dpsing too. He had pretty much all the dps plate you can find, the only "bad" part of his gear was that he used an untamed blade like me(gg shitty drop rates). And I was still rocking him on almost every fight. How? I have no idea, I always tried to figure why he was doing so bad to help him not be so worthless, considering he was loot whoring so much gear that could have been better used by newbies dpsing in might. It's really weird since dpsing is pretty much about hitting the same 2keys. Pretty similar to hunter dps...
The same way, when I was playing my hunter, I always had the top dps. I figured the whole cycle thing early in the game, before I read about it on boards way after I quit playing. I was gearing my hunter for AP instead of crit like most of the other hunters in my guild were, I was maximizing dmg already. Mind you, hunters are like the most boring class to play in the game imo. They're like rogues, but with backstab on a 6secs cooldown, SnD every 10secs and vanish every 30secs. Nothing else, and sadly you can't beat rogues dps even with a perfect cycle(at least on horde side, I'm not too sure if hunters on alliance can do better with JoW).
I played a rogue too, I found it more fun cause you had to micro manage energy/combo points gains, especially on fights where you move around(twin emps). Being a sword rogue I also had AR and blade flurry and it was interesting to find a good moment to burn it early in the fight without pulling aggro, then vanish.
However, in general, dps classes tend to get boring fast, especially when you're starting to get close to your "dream" gear set. As long as you're striving to outdps people with better gear than you, and see every boss as a potential dps upgrade if you get this or that drop, it's fun. After a while tho, you're starting to get your gear, the difference in gear with the top guys in your class is smaller, and there's no real point anymore, the only difference between you and the other is how many AEs you take that force you to bandage and your luck on crits/windfury.
I won't go into healers, even tho I respect their work greatly, it's something I could never do. I played a shaman to 60 and did a few 5man with it, it was somewhat fun, but playing one in a raid is annoying as hell, there's too many stuff to look at but even if you manage to keep it undercontrol, you still feel worthless(at least I do). Priests are even more boring than shamans, gg raid assist bars all over the screen and rank3-4 flash heal spam. Sure there's a few things to look into, but most of it can be summed up like this.
So in the end, the most fun thing to me is tanking. You pretty much have the control over the wohle encounter, you have the responsability to position and keep the mob aggroed on you, by maximizing your threat cycles, gearing yourself is as important as for any dps class since you have many ways to go about gearing tanks(obviously big lines are all the same, but choosing what to take between 150armor or 1dodge, or 3%shield block and 10stamina vs 1%parry etc...). You rarely fall asleep while playing since you always have to be spamming threat keys in the most efficient order and you have to keep attention to a lot of external factors(healer's mana, AE positioning, distance to the mob, line of sight). I like it, and when you're not tanking, you're dpsing which is like playing 2classes at once. And people won't bitch at you because you're a giant chicken casting starfires or you just turned shadowform on ^^
I think blizzard has been working to make everyone have a lot more to pay attention to than how much health the mob has left with their new encounter designs.
to expand on this a little - there's a lot of fights now that have health based or time based triggers that ask you to DPS in a way different from 3333333333333333333333333333333 to be most effective. the simplest example is the gargoyle trash in the plague wing - watching the health bar and knowing that i want to start casting aimed shot at about 35% given my raid's typical DPS to maximize my damage output in the window prior to stoneskin - or on noth, paying attention to blinks and knowing when to stop attacking, or even when to KEEP attacking to pull him to me rather than a priest or whatever so i can give the tank time to grab him. anything with a health based enrage/berserk, whatever - handling eye tentacles on c'thun (of both varieties), and synching DPS on flesh tentacles with those outside to maximize weakened stages. it's a LOT more complicated than just "PRESS BUTTON" if you want to make the most of things, and it's a hell of a lot more fun because of it.
Thaen, it's a rule for these forums mate, I'd advise you stop signing simply because people will ignore what you are writing if you keep doing it.
Re. what you say - we have the same issue. Some people seem to be, to put it simply, better players than others. But that's okay - not everyone can be ace, and only one person can come top in damage.
My issue is with the peopel at the bottom - especially those who fall waaay below others in damage, despite having a gear advantage. I have damage meters fomr Ebonroc, one of the most rogue friendly fights out there, where I (A mage) did literlly 3 times the damage of some rogues. That's wrong - but fixing it is a difficult issue. Especially in an environment unlike EJ's, where competition over damage meters, theory craft, and optimisation isn't as welcome or enjoyed by people.
I'll probably get lynched by my guild for even posting this... :)
It's really odd to me that the primary melee DPS class presses only two buttons, while the tank/dps class has a lot more options to maximize their DPS.
Yeah we had this issue too. In our MC runs well as long as I wasn't dealing with drama BS and could focus on playing instead of managing group and loot I would be near the top of the damage meters as a mage, only beaten by our best rogue or sometimes our best hunter/dps warrior. In the mages there there was a large discrepency in dmg done. There would be either me (most of the time) or our mage gal at the top of the dmg meters, with the other 2 falling quite a bit behind. One might have had something to do with spec though, since he was always an AP/fire mage in MC. The fourth had great gear and was AP/frost but for some reason his dmg always sucked in comparison. Also had a good lock friend who despite good gear did brutally on dmg meters, even getting beat on boss fights by tanks and shamans. Glad I never had to deal with that before I left.
07/14/06, 1:29 PM
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