Tier 3 Proc Rates - Page 3

Incoherence · 07/20/06, 4:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

I really hope it is able to stack, but say to a max of like 5 times.... mmmm 120 mana / 5 seconds for 30 seconds.

I said this earlier, but just read it as every time 8 piece Faith goes off you gain 144 mana. If it doesn't stack it's actually less than that, but somehow I doubt it stacks.

Healranktwo · 07/21/06, 5:33 AM

You guys are missing one very important part of the 8 piece faith bonus though.

It works on top of your normal regen. 3 piece trans works when you are casting and gives you more mana during that time yes, but when you aren't casting, 3 piece trans does nothing for you.

I won't say 8 piece faith is better or anything, but to dismiss it as a completely worthless bonus is kinda...meh imo.

Not to mention, even if you use the bracers, belt, and leggings for 3 piece trans (faith equilvalent for these slots are not as huge upgrades as the rest), you are still losing 49 healing, 15 stam, 16 spirit, 4 int while you only gain 7 mana every 5 seconds.

IMO,

49 healing (which is huge), 15 stam (I never use to think much about stamina in the BWL days...i'm sure a lot of us who want pure healing power didn't back then, can you say the same now about Naxxramas? Where several encounters have you taking a ton of damage that you wish you had 1 more health sometimes). 16 spirit (decent, though 7 mana every 5 seconds negates it), 4 int (crappy), and the 8 piece faith bonus (works on top of normal regen) >>>>>>>>> 3 piece trans(doesn't work on top of normal regen) and 7 mana every 5 seconds

Incoherence · 07/21/06, 5:43 AM

Originally Posted by Healranktwo

You guys are missing one very important part of the 8 piece faith bonus though.

It works on top of your normal regen. 3 piece trans works when you are casting and gives you more mana during that time yes, but when you aren't casting, 3 piece trans does nothing for you.

I won't say 8 piece faith is better or anything, but to dismiss it as a completely worthless bonus is kinda...meh imo.

Uh, I took that into account. The contribution from 3 piece Trans is 15% of your mana regen times your FSR%. The contribution from 8/9 Faith is 24 mana/5 times its uptime, which depends on how many spells you cast per 30 seconds. (In particular, the uptime for 8/9 Faith is 1 - (0.95^(casts_per_30s)), or 1 minus the chance that the last however many spells DIDN'T proc it.) For pretty much any value of casts/30s, the breakpoint above which 3 piece Trans is better is below the minimal FSR% you would need to keep up that casting rate.

Example: If you cast 10 times per 30 seconds (which requires that you have at least 18.5s/30s = 61.67% in FSR), the breakpoint above which 3/8 Trans is better for varying values of spirit:

Spi	FSR breakpoint
200	40.76%
250	34.01%
300	29.18%
350	25.55%
400	22.73%
450	20.46%
500	18.61%
550	17.06%

This is easy enough to explain: the more you cast, the more 8/9 Faith is up, but the more you cast, the more 3/8 Trans contributes.

Deris · 07/21/06, 6:45 AM

Just the fact that its static, and Trans isn't, means I'd rather use the 3pc Trans Bonus. And Personally - I'm going to stick with Trans Boots over Faith - the belt is too large of an upgrade and sacrificing a little M/5 won't hurt one bit.

Faytte · 07/21/06, 8:30 AM

Any data on the Bonescyth 2/8 proc rate?

jubelio · 07/21/06, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Faytte

Any data on the Bonescyth 2/8 proc rate?

read the fucking thread.

Faytte · 07/21/06, 8:55 AM

My apologize, I skeemed it but noticed it center around mage/druid/priest sets. Guess I'll go re read!

edit: hah post 10. Was searching for bonescythe instead. Sorry for the retardedness, coffee hasnt had it's effect yet.

Tuco · 07/21/06, 9:09 AM

Not to mention, even if you use the bracers, belt, and leggings for 3 piece trans (faith equilvalent for these slots are not as huge upgrades as the rest), you are still losing 49 healing, 15 stam, 16 spirit, 4 int while you only gain 7 mana every 5 seconds.

IMO,

Don't forget that you gain around 33ish mana / 5 after you cast a spell with 3pc T.

Zoner · 07/28/06, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by Chiquihuite

What about the 2 piece Plagueheart bonus? No love for the Warlocks I swear =(

I ran SWStats without any resets for 2 straight days of raiding after getting the 2 piece set, its definitely 10%.

Incoherence · 07/29/06, 4:44 AM

Originally Posted by Tuco

Not to mention, even if you use the bracers, belt, and leggings for 3 piece trans (faith equilvalent for these slots are not as huge upgrades as the rest), you are still losing 49 healing, 15 stam, 16 spirit, 4 int while you only gain 7 mana every 5 seconds.

IMO,

Don't forget that you gain around 33ish mana / 5 after you cast a spell with 3pc T.

The difference between 3/8 Trans and 8/9 Faith is roughly 16-22 mana/5, depending mostly on how much spirit you have, but also on your casting pattern.

Anaram · 07/30/06, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by Incoherence

Originally Posted by Tuco

Not to mention, even if you use the bracers, belt, and leggings for 3 piece trans (faith equilvalent for these slots are not as huge upgrades as the rest), you are still losing 49 healing, 15 stam, 16 spirit, 4 int while you only gain 7 mana every 5 seconds.

IMO,

Don't forget that you gain around 33ish mana / 5 after you cast a spell with 3pc T.

The difference between 3/8 Trans and 8/9 Faith is roughly 16-22 mana/5, depending mostly on how much spirit you have, but also on your casting pattern.

Also one should not forget the more covert factors: each innervate you get nullifies transcendence bonus for 20 seconds and gives 12.5 mana per point of spirit.

Rogar · 07/30/06, 11:50 PM

For reference: Previous priest T3 discussion on this forum.

A point from that thread that's worth repeating here:

Originally Posted by Amera

One weapon upgrade from deep in Naxx will get you the entire Faith set +heal upgrade

ipcv · 07/31/06, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sancus

Kelthuzad's staff drop is a bad pve weapon so this is a bad choice.

I am sorry, why is it a bad choice for PvE? As a wearer of Staff of the Shadow Flame, I think KT's staff is the best in game, after Atiesh.

• Navaash · 07/31/06, 2:19 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's because it has no spell hit and has the (so-far-determined-to-be-)worthless spell penetration mechanic.

Then again they may have changed the item again. I don't remember Brimstone Staff having 1% crit before.

• Navaash · 07/31/06, 2:26 PM

Stupid edit bug.

The staff also has no spirit on it.

For reference:

+30 sta
+30 int
+126 dmg
+2% spell crit
-25 spell penetration

desiato · 07/31/06, 2:35 PM

They removed the spirit from Brimstone and added the spell crit.

• Navaash · 07/31/06, 2:38 PM

That would be why. Wowwalkthrough already changed the stats but thanks to whataboutpp here are the original stats on Brimstone:

+29 sta
+30 int
+17 spi
+2% spell hit
+113 damage

Auphi · 07/31/06, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Navaash

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's because it has no spell hit and has the (so-far-determined-to-be-)worthless spell penetration mechanic.

Then again they may have changed the item again. I don't remember Brimstone Staff having 1% crit before.

For Mages that can comfortably reach the +Hit cap against level 63 mobs, Kel'thuzad's Staff is the best epic staff in the game (completely disregarding Spell Penetration). For the Brimstone Staff to surpass Kel'thuzad's Staff in DPS, you would need to be at least 2% below the cap (+8% or less Hit).

I think the only interesting note is that Brimstone Staff is so close to Kel'thuzads considering who they drop off of. Would be as if Claw of the Black Drake were comparable to Edge of Chaos.

Zoner · 08/01/06, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Auphi

For Mages that can comfortably reach the +Hit cap against level 63 mobs, Kel'thuzad's Staff is the best epic staff in the game (completely disregarding Spell Penetration). For the Brimstone Staff to surpass Kel'thuzad's Staff in DPS, you would need to be at least 2% below the cap (+8% or less Hit).

There is no hit cap, there is merely a value where it stops being effective :)

Its pretty much tied to two things:

The targets level (all spells)
The targets resistance level (binary spells)

There is definitely a mechanic in the game of a minimum resistance level for elite monsters. It seems to be 5 points per level difference, so 63 bosses have 15 resistance no matter what. My combat logs very consistenttly show about 4% damage lost on non-binary spells on bosses like Patchwerk due to partial resists, totaly in line with a 15/300 minimum resist value. For binary spells, +hit gear is further penalized by this minimum resistance, making +1 hit actually worth 96.25% what you would think it is worth. So for mages getting frostbolts down to the maximum 99% hit rate against 63 bosses, they would need +20 hit. A mage achieving this theorticaly number should be doing pretty good, because the minimum resistance of 15 on the target is more or less nullified, something that fire can never do.

However convincing mages of this (especially on the WOW forums) is nearly impossible due to the amount of misinformation out there, primarily in the form of the mysterious '+hit cap' where which people frequently spew 'you only need +3 hit for PVP ever' and other nonsense. That and why the hell would they listen to a warlock?

Spell penetration is more or less useless for all bosses, unless you forgot to bring a warlock or the warlocks are dead longer than the last recast of a curse. Only very specific bosses have very high resistances to some schools. Lucifron's 250-300 ish shadow resistance is about the only standout in the game really. The should also be fairly evident as the majority of spell penetration items are PVP rewards and gear oriented to PVP (tier 2.5 armor, drops from the first bosses of AQ40 are generaly PVP oriented for all classes, etc)

◊ Oggie · 08/11/06, 12:24 PM

So...sorry for bumping an old thread, but I really want to know if anyone has checked the proc rate on 6 piece Earthshatterer/Redemption (at a guess, these are similar)- it doesnt' make a huge difference so far for me, but I'm pretty sure the proc rate will change the priority of interested shaman/paladins, and I have not seen anyone respond with what it is...

Or is it a situation where quite simply there aren't enough people with the set bonuses yet?

Zoner · 08/11/06, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Drauk

Originally Posted by Quixotic

http://ctprofiles.net/2478005

The 6 piece FF in it's current state for a frost mage, is one of the better sets, as you can sacrifice a few slots being capped on +hit, and crit being not AS important as a fire mage. Also has all the "visible" pieces of the set so you look decent while raiding :P.

http://www.ctprofiles.net/1960791

For fire, I'd rather go with a higher crit gear set, for better use of MoE and rolling ignites, while still being at capped hit.

11 hit isnt capped. The cap is 16, since cap is 99% spell hit chance.

Every 63 boss has 15-25 ish resist that spell penetration and curses never remove, which puts you closer to needing +20 hit to get to 99% hit. At least for binary spells like Curses, Frostbolt, Shadowburn, Deathcoil, etc.

Maledict · 08/11/06, 2:07 PM

There is definitely a mechanic in the game of a minimum resistance level for elite monsters. It seems to be 5 points per level difference, so 63 bosses have 15 resistance no matter what. My combat logs very consistenttly show about 4% damage lost on non-binary spells on bosses like Patchwerk due to partial resists, totaly in line with a 15/300 minimum resist value. For binary spells, +hit gear is further penalized by this minimum resistance, making +1 hit actually worth 96.25% what you would think it is worth. So for mages getting frostbolts down to the maximum 99% hit rate against 63 bosses, they would need +20 hit. A mage achieving this theorticaly number should be doing pretty good, because the minimum resistance of 15 on the target is more or less nullified, something that fire can never do.

Erm, repeated parsing by every mage I know has shown that binary spells don't suffer in any way from the innate resists thing than non-binary spells do. My resist rates on level 63 mobs parse out at pretty much the exact what they should be, over the course of a couple of BWL runs, every time.

Sancus · 08/14/06, 1:22 AM

Erm, repeated parsing by every mage I know has shown that binary spells don't suffer in any way from the innate resists thing than non-binary spells do.

Yep, just confirming this. There is absolutely NO evidence that the 15 resist thing has ANY effect on binary spells and even less evidence that additional %hit would be able to counter it if it did.

So honestly, you're going to present some pretty amazing data to prove your belief on this because it contradicts a lot of established and shown evidence.

BeavisNuke · 08/16/06, 11:47 AM

Can anyone with 4 piece frostfire tell me how much it procs and if it stacks with itself?

http://www.thotbott.com/?sp=28764

Also, do you find it actually useful?

Shik · 08/22/06, 8:41 AM

Whats the % proc chance for the 2pc Dreamwalker (druid t3) bonus? I found the spell on thott, but carries no additional data. I figured some EJ druids must have it by now.