Dual wielding and Lifestealting vs crusader

vespertilio · 07/17/06, 5:11 AM

Well i read an interesting post recently and i would like to hear some views on it

According to that, lifestealing can be the highest dual wielding dps enchants since its getting a 35% increase in dmg from imp curse of shadow and shadow priest debuff, since it procs almost 6 times as much as crusader.

Cayman · 07/17/06, 5:51 AM

If you could link said post, that would probably help a lot. There are a couple externalities that it may not be adjusting for. For instance:

~High crit rate makes Crusader better. It doesn't do anything for Lifestealing.
~Crusader is still good without a shadowmage in your raid. Lifestealing... not so much.
~Because of the way proc on proc was altered/nerfed, whenever Lifestealing procs, certain weapon and trinket procs are preempted. It used to be that Lifestealing procs created another chance for other damaging procs to trigger. Now, it precludes them. Because the crusader proc doesn't deal direct damage, it doesn't prevent Thunderfury or Perdition's from proccing, for instance.
~Lifestealing can be resisted. Especially on 63 mobs. I don't think either CoS or SW help with the binary resist check at all. Crusader, obviously, isn't afected by resists.
~Speaking of resists, if this were the case, than Fiery Weapon, with Imp. Scorch and CoE, would be 25% more damage than Lifestealing. However, there are enough fire-immune monsters out there that people figured out this was a pretty bad idea.

Take a look at some of the rogue spreadsheets on this forum, and compare LS/LS to LS/Agi, Crusader/Agi, Crusader/Crusader, and Fiery/Fiery, with the applicable debuffs up.

vespertilio · 07/17/06, 6:35 AM

well the post i read isnt anything worth linking, it didnt contain more accurate data than what i have pretty much said here.

As for spreadsheets, the ones i found did not include an option for debuffs, and since i dont know the exact mechanic with which they work i cant tell, but i got this : considering tier 2-2.5 equip and around 980 ap an 27 crit main hand lifestealing (wihtout the debuffs) is only 0.7 dps less than crusader!

as far as off hand is concerned lifestealing follows agi +15 by 2.7 dps, considerable difference here as the procs from enchants on off hand have a lower landing chance.

So as far as spreadsheet numbers are concerned it looks as though lifestealing not only clearly could superscende crusader but also heals u quite a bit if u combare it to enchants like fiery.

Ur point about weapon procs are valid but 1) what if ur weapons dont have any procs (like most end game 1h swords (cts/aqr/maladath) and lets not
forget that poison procing is independant
2) Most mobs dont really have any shadow resistance ( at least from what has been seen so far - but
could be an issue on some encounters when creatures have interchangable vunerabilities, or future enc

suicuique · 07/17/06, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by vespertilio

... as the procs from enchants on off hand have a lower landing chance.

Is this acknowledged as fact? Or just a persistent rumour?
Has there ever be an in depth analysis on proc chance in MH/OH?

I once made a quick test, ONLY autoattacking with 2 daggers (Perdition blade with weapon proc, Pugio with crusader) same mobs for an hour or two. Then swapping the hands, iterating the test and comparing the number of procs.
Contrary to what i expected, the Perdition procced the same in both hands, as did the crusader proc on the Pugio.
At least there were no significant proc-chance deviation to be seen.

Was that some freak accident? Can someone educate?

regards

Mem · 07/17/06, 9:45 AM

The procrate of MH and OH are identical. Both suffer the same dual wield to hit malus. The only difference between both hands is caused by the fact that every style is done by the MH. Therefore the MH does hit more often, especially since styles do only miss for 5 % against Level 60 targets.

suicuique · 07/17/06, 10:00 AM

Thanks for the confirmation. I know that most instant skills are done by the MH though, so this is the only deciding factor why an enchant on the MH procs more than the same enchant on the OH would.

I just wanted to know if the underlying "on hit" chance that most procs use (ppm is just a method to fix this chance for a given weapon) takes an OH malus into account. Obviously there is none.

regards

vespertilio · 07/17/06, 11:33 AM

well want i meant mostly was the instant attack of the main hand but , i have also heared that certain procs excluding poisons have lower proc rate in the off hand, if i get more specific info on that i will post.

But it would be nice to hear some thoughts on the dps value of lifestealing :/

Day · 07/17/06, 11:43 AM

In raids you will find that Crusader will out-DPS Lifestealing almost all the time unless you base everything on Chrom or the Wyrmguard trash in BWL. It does significantly outheal Crusader however, and is probably a better choice for PvP, so take that as you will.