Ok, maybe there isn't anything to test. But no one has been able to answer if TF works on the PPM system or it has a set proc rate regardless of haste and instant attacks.

Pretty sure extensive testing on PTR and live when the initial proc rate nerf went in put it at ~15%. And was later upped to something like 17%. Not PPM apparently. Or never saw anyone claiming it was anyways.

Well, 15% isn't a proc rate, that's a proc chance, which is exactly why offhanding it wouldn't be as good. Basically, what I want to know is does TF proc the same amount over time, regardless of haste and instant attack usage?

Believe that it's proc chance which is based off PPM (post below by Beef). Screwing around with it makes me miss the good ol' days when it procced off lifesteal, instant poison, itself and worked with spell power at 30% proc chance.

No weapon works like that.

When they set a weapon or enchant's "proc per minute" they just set a certain percentage to the item so that if you autoattack with it, you'll get that many procs in a minute.

This means if they made a 3.0 speed weapon and decided to give it a proc with "1 ppm" it just means the weapon has a 5% chance of proccing, since you'll get 20 autoattacks in that minute. If you're hasted and use instant attacks, you'll get more than one per minute on average, since it's always 5% chance to proc.

So for something like Crusader enchant that has a 1 ppm rate (correct me if mistaken), it'll be a 4.85% chance of proccing on a 2.9 speed weapon, and a 2.666% chance on a 1.6 speed weapon.

Yar.

um you can now equip a mainhand with a decent top end and still apply the debuff with TF offhand ... this is an amazing buff for a fury warrior or rogue.

Yeah, but if a fury warrior is using it for dps, that means all your main tanks should have it too. No way I'm taking TF over a tank. So, applying the debuff is moot. I'm betting about 50% of a warrior's hits come from yellow, so you're losing half of the proc dps. So at that point, what's a better offhand, TF or Claw of the Frost Wyrm?

Iblis if you have edgemasters on :) I don't see Claw being great until they add appropriate weapon skill.

The PPM mechanic is for enchants primarily which can be placed on multiple weapons. For unique procs, theyre placed on 1 weapon with 1 specific speed, so you can get a proc rate which applies to all attacks.

I'll do some proc watching again, but I'm pretty sure the last time I did so with my TF, the proc was right around 20%.

I'd support this. The initial nerf was from 30% down to 14%, and then it was quietly brought back to what looks like 20% a couple of patches back. Weapon procs aren't PPM, enchants are.

Makes TF a really good offhand. Proc alone is 30dps and ignores armor (basic math - 1.9 speed x 5 attacks is 9.5 secs, 20% chance to proc 300 dmg for an average of just over 30dps/sec). You'd miss out of the extra procs off MH instants, but it still blows away any other offhand for damage and will probably continue to do so for a very long time.

The catch for rogues is the aggro. The TF threat gen thread on this board somewhere showed each proc carries significant threat on the non-damaging debuff as well. Even bigger problem for fury warrior dps probably, although if your MT also has one I guess its a wash threatwise.

I believe that the chance to proc on chance on hit effects gets halved in the offhand.

I'm not so sure about this. The proc chance would definitely be lower, though, unless you had +24 hit.

By just copy pasting the Thunderfury into Chalon's sheet as an offhand, it was the best offhand possible for any spec.

For dagger spec you have to make the Thunderfury into a dagger. Even without any +dagger, Thunderfury increased with dps as you made it a dagger in the spreadsheet.

Not sure if Chalon's sheet doesnt believe that dagger spec is applied to the offhand even if it isnt a dagger, or if the weapon expertise included only adds it for daggers, but something is off.

But back to the main subject, Thunderfury was significantly higher than Iblis as an offhand in the sword spreadsheet as well as higher than Death's Sting or Harbinger with ACLs on as well. Did not have ACLs on for any tests with the Thunderfurydagger offhand.

Not sure what you're getting at with that +hit comment. Are you implying that offhand has higher miss rate than mainhand?

Either way, as it's been established, proc chance is fixed on a weapon. Proc rate is what would be affected by +hit.

Nah, that reduces the proc rate. The proc chance is constant. Off hand will have an overall lower proc rate, yes, but that's from having no instant attacks, nothing to do with more misses(which it shouldn't have either, offhand and mainhand white hits should be the same).

Yes, obviously its only going to proc on a succesful hit, I did say the above math was the simple version. Amount of +hit, and whether you have flurry is going to affect how many hits you make.

I have never seen any conclusive evidence of proc-rates being halved on the offhand, just anecdotal evidence from people forgetting that instants always proc off the MH so of course it will do more than the offhand, unless you just autoattack.

Someone procwatch 1000 swings with crusader on the MH only, then procwatch 1000 swings with crusader on the offhand only, that will answer it.

I once did exactly that. Don't have the numbers on hand, but results were pretty clearly implying no difference in proc rate for main and offhanding the crusader weapon.

On a side note, can anyone point me to conclusive evidence that Instants use the ppm-determinded procchance for enchant procs instead of some fixed, speed independent chance?

The diffence in crusader proc rates with 3.8 speed weapons vs 1.3 speed is easily evident, I don't think there is much controversy there. From memory crusader @ 3.8 is near 7%, which is why 2H warriors have so much uptime with it.

We called it a pumpkin the first time and that kinda stuck.

Hi ziggy

I'm going to go with 18% or even lower, though I haven't used it in a while. Assuming 18%, 1.46 swings a second with SnD, 41.05 melee hits a minute. 7.39 procs a minute, 36.9 Dps under optimal conditions with no resists. Let's say it's around 30DPS normally. Worth it to switch HoD out for TF? Depends a little on how much crit and hit is worth to you, it's worth about 11 DPS for me, another 8.5DPS for weapon dps. Too lazy but, factoring in dagger spec, and weapon skill, and the non scaling Nature damage, I'm going to say it's near wash or falling behind unless I am completely missing something. Great change with other builds though and nice that the proc works with murder I suppose.