I don't think I need to modify the formula to deal with debuffs really.

Measure before any debuffs - That's the starting armor
Measure after 5 Sunder, FF, CoR - Only needed to verify that nothing crazy is going on. Their armor should drop by a known amount based on the debuffs.

Specifically regarding the order in which EA is applied, it should be really easy to model EA before Sunder or EA after Sunder. If EA --> Sunder, then Kick should do X. If Sunder --> EA, then kick should do Y.

Most tanks will probably throw a couple sunders up before you actually engage a raid boss. I don't think it matters too much on other mobs whether sunder or imp EA is better. They die too fast for you get a full 5/5/3 cycle.

I think the two main questions are:
1) Is EA before or after other armor reductions? (specifically Faerie Fire and CoR because it will not stack with sunder)
2) Is EA going to allow the raid to do more damage in some/most encounters than sunder + your evis if you change your cycle? If so, your tank needs to get used to HS + revenge + shield slam tanking. The way to determine this is compute mob armor values based on testing with improved kick or some other fixed damage physical attack.

The first item needs to be determined before people can do the math on the second one.

Good question, and one that should be easy to test with a rogue and druid on the PTR. Here's how:

Methodology
1) Find a mob.
2) Kick a few times, record results.
3) Apply EA and FF
4) Kick a few times, record results.

I have already done step 1-2 on the live server:
Lvl 53-54 Scarlet Warder (From Tyr's Hand): Avg Kick Damage = 53.5 (I got results of 53 and 54 exclusively with a small dataset.)

Kick Reduction Formula: R = 100 - 1.25D
R = 100 - 1.25 * 53.5 = 33.5 Reduction

Armor Formula: A = -5500R / (R - 100)
Armor = -5500 * 33.5 / (33.5 - 100) = 2724.3 Armor

So a Warder has 2724.3 Armor.

Let's assume we use the untalented 5pt EA value of -40%. Faerie Fire removes 505 Armor.
Also, we use two more formulas here:

* Reduction Formula: R = 100A / ( A + 5500)
* Kick Damage: D = - (R-100)/1.25

With that in mind, let's look at the two scenarios.

Scenario A: EA then FF

2724.3 * (1 - .4) - 505 = 1129.6 Armor
Reduction = 100 * 1129.6 / ( 1129.6 + 5500) = 17.03% Reduction
Kick Dmg = - (17.03 - 100)/1.25 = 66.3

Scenario B: FF then EA

( 2724.3 - 505) * (1 - .4) = 1331.58 Armor
Reduction = 100 * 1331.58 / ( 1331.58 + 5500) = 19.49% Reduction
Kick Dmg = - (19.49 - 100)/1.25 = 64.4

Conclusion:
So some Rogue and Druid go to the PTR and kick some Scarlet Warders.

If a 5pt EA + FF Scarlet Warder is kicked for:
* 66-67 damage, its EA -> FF.
* 64-65 damage, its FF -> EA.

(Assuming I haven't borked up the formulas here somewhere).

My forumlas agree with yours, and they're what I used in the new and impvoed version of the armor mod. Still doesn't take Badge of Swarmguard, Expose armor (the irony, she kills me) or anything else I can't think of atm.

Should have a little data on twin emps tonight with any luck.

Getting a 3750ish AC read on TE pre Sunder, does that number agree with anyone's recollection? A full sunder on that (seems to?) work out to about 21% mitigation post sundering.

I'll have a lot more data on various bosses, I've been bugging guildmates to equip the mod (btw, I would -love- to send it to others and let me know if it's going to report accurately). It's not my code to start with or in any way primarily, just a hackjob I patched in.

That number smells right at least. I have an old parse here with max hit 497 on emps, so 20% mitigation seems about right.

Ya, like mobs are just full of extra debuff slots right? Warlocks don't need to use those silly dots anyhows. Add in the fact you will need a rogue designated to be EA bitch at raids and therefore gimping said rogues already not spectactular DPS even more.

considering that CoR is worth using even spite of the increased attack power, I'd think it be worth it to squeeze in EA if it really did stack with sunder.

Sunder armor and EA now stack.

Finding some way to host the screenshots.

Say goodbye to CoR on bosses I guess....

Letting mobs have an extra 1700+ less armor by allowing it to stack with sunder doesn't seem like a change they'll keep, unless they just felt like giving all physical DPS an extra 10% or more damage.

It's even worse than that- 2550 with 2/2 iEA.

Took me from 5.5k ac to a nice 700.

I have no idea if they're planning on keeping this.

Edit:
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?p..._id=0&warned=y

Didn't really edit it, just resized and all, let me know if that's not enough info. I have a SS with the same gear (don't laugh, itemrack went kinda nuts) unsundered, but I figured that since you can clearly see a few pieces of TS and malistar's it'd be pretty hard to get that AC with only either one.

The equation is ~ mitigation% = armor/(armor+5650), don't bother wasting your time regressing data.

Mitigation and armor are not linearly related, mitigation and time to live *are*.

That saves me some effort, thanks.

In my analysis, time to live wasn't something I was focused on. The value of a 5 point EA instead of alternative uses for those 5 points in a 1 on 1 pvp situation, however, do interest me. Too many variables in time to live against an unknown target (pvp).

The PvE implications of a stacking EA are too obvious to be worth much discussion. 1) Determine they stack with a little arena work. 2) stack them as often as possible in pve (get an EA bitch).

If they stack you can basically get any BWL mob to 0 or almost 0 armor for 30 seconds at a time (and work a cycle between 2 rogues to keep it that way and keep SnD going). I haven't done any testing in AQ or nax to tell you what the AC gets up to on those mobs (we're only up to Sartura).

I'd be surprised if this went live, the decision has always been not to have them stack whenever this has come up before. It seems like too much of a dps boost (on the order of +20% * 15+ people as juice mentioned).

So basically, the only changes to Expose Armor is that it now takes two points to boost it by 50% (as opposed to three points for 45%) and that it stacks with Sunder (which may or may not be intended)? Because the live version of EA is 340/CP also.

I'm half wondering if this is an attempt to "fix" rogue DPS relative to casters (though it puts warriors through the roof, and hunters don't get off badly either).

From Hortus:
Q u o t e:
Any word on if it is intended to stack with Sunder Armor (as i belive it currently is on test)?

I knew I forgot something... It is a bug that it stacks with Sunder, and it will be fixed. As I understand it the more powerful ability should overwrite the less powerful one.



It seems the stacking is a bug, which makes sense. 0 armor mobs would be imba.

Yeah, heaven forbid that rogues approach mage damage. :rolleyes:

So um, does this mean Expose Armor doesn't change at all with the review?

Guess not. It seemed too imbalanced to have double the current armor reduction. As to rogues not outdamaging mages, umm what dps meters is this? PW killshots show rogues beating mages even when flasked quite often, and always when the mages aren't flasked.

From what the post is saying, could it possible that on high armour mobs, EA will stick, but warriors can still Sunder because the debuffs are "different" now?