Theorycraft - The End of Lines - Page 2

• frmorrison · 07/19/06, 10:19 AM

3 Pallys is all you need. The combination of BoM/BoK/BoS and SoE/WF totem would be fun with melee classes.

Like others said, it would certainly balance the encounters, and if they continue with the Token system for set drops, it would be easy to add in a Pally token (just add it to the Rogue/Warrior one).

Ravock · 07/19/06, 10:21 AM

I find this possibility to be highly .... unrealistic. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Personally, I'd just like to see Blizzard fix the totem system. I'm not really sure what the issue is with making totems affect people outside of your party while in a raid. Leave the range limitation in... make totems affect outside of your individual groups. Then the disparity between the two factions when it comes to raiding is cut 10 fold IMO.

It seems to me given the huge population imbalances that most servers face, that Blizzard would buff horde raiding to the point that its actually EASIER to raid on Horde so that it would be more appealing to roll that faction. Meh... I'm ranting, sorry.

Nite_Moogle · 07/19/06, 10:29 AM

Horde Paladins and Alliance Shamans would be the biggest cop-out in gaming history. I really do expect more from Blizzard.

Malan · 07/19/06, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Ravock

Personally, I'd just like to see Blizzard fix the totem system. I'm not really sure what the issue is with making totems affect people outside of your party while in a raid. Leave the range limitation in... make totems affect outside of your individual groups. Then the disparity between the two factions when it comes to raiding is cut 10 fold IMO.

According to Blizzard CMs on the shaman forums during the "feedback phase" of the talent review, "raid wide totems" would result in "fewer shaman being taken on raids". You know... as opposed to right now where my guild doesn't even bother setting up groups to use totems unless its a resistance fight. I rerolled a warrior after I asked to have shamans moved into a rogue group on Twin Emps for DPS totems, and was told that it "didn't matter" if they had totems or not.

Edit - I hopped on my shaman just last night to help with healing in Naxx (haven't been in there since it opened really, been on my warrior ever since the 1.11 patch) and even on a fight like Noth, which demands a very high DPS output from the raid, our groups were not set up efficiently for totem mechanics. It seems like nobody cares about it anymore.

Valen · 07/19/06, 10:39 AM

Didn't jeff kaplan hint in NY interview that they will never do such thing?

Spartacus · 07/19/06, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Originally Posted by Ravock

Personally, I'd just like to see Blizzard fix the totem system. I'm not really sure what the issue is with making totems affect people outside of your party while in a raid. Leave the range limitation in... make totems affect outside of your individual groups. Then the disparity between the two factions when it comes to raiding is cut 10 fold IMO.

According to Blizzard CMs on the shaman forums during the "feedback phase" of the talent review, "raid wide totems" would result in "fewer shaman being taken on raids". You know... as opposed to right now where my guild doesn't even bother setting up groups to use totems unless its a resistance fight. I rerolled a warrior after I asked to have shamans moved into a rogue group on Twin Emps for DPS totems, and was told that it "didn't matter" if they had totems or not.

Edit - I hopped on my shaman just last night to help with healing in Naxx (haven't been in there since it opened really, been on my warrior ever since the 1.11 patch) and even on a fight like Noth, which demands a very high DPS output from the raid, our groups were not set up efficiently for totem mechanics. It seems like nobody cares about it anymore.

Find a new guild.

♦ Praetorian · 07/19/06, 10:41 AM

Then your raid leader is stupid. Totems may have all sorts of limitations, but saying that they aren't worth giving to your DPS is just asinine. The problem is that they involve far too many tradeoffs and 3/8 of a raid typically ends up without them. But for what they are, they are certainly significant boosts to performance where they do apply.

♦ Praetorian · 07/19/06, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Valen

Didn't jeff kaplan hint in NY interview that they will never do such thing?

Yeah, as I recall, part of the reasoning was that they wanted there to be some animosity between the factions, and difference breeds animosity. Give everyone the same classes and it may as well be Red vs. Blue or Skins vs. Shirts rather than two warring factions.

Malan · 07/19/06, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Valen

Didn't jeff kaplan hint in NY interview that they will never do such thing?

Not directly, this is what he said-

Originally Posted by Jeff Kaplan

I don't think that paladins and shamans are supposed to explicitly balance each other out. They are supposed to be different, and frankly at some perverse level I think it's good that there's this animosity. It adds to the immersiveness because the Horde are supposed to have a special hatred for paladins and the Alliance is supposed to really hate shamans. The paladin was always supposed to be this holy warrior in plate armor, very much a support class, though one that could tank in a pinch, and they most certainly can. The shaman is a more offensive caster who wears chain armor, centered around his totems. But when I play Horde I hate paladins. It's like I could never kill them and it seems so futile.

The bit about "hating paladins" leads me to believe they wouldn't implement this change.

Edit - full transcript available here:
http://www.wowcentral.com/modules.ph...=print&sid=344

Malan · 07/19/06, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Totems may have all sorts of limitations, but saying that they aren't worth giving to your DPS is just asinine. The problem is that they involve far too many tradeoffs and 3/8 of a raid typically ends up without them. But for what they are, they are certainly significant boosts to performance where they do apply.

... and that's why I rerolled after that incident. I only play on the shaman now when the raid is short of some healers while I'm still gearing up my warrior. I went from being the best geared raiding shaman on the server to the most mediocre warrior in the guild.

Copernicus · 07/19/06, 10:48 AM

The expansion is a whole new way to balance raids. The Alliance Shaman/Horde Paladin rumor has been around since the game came out. From Blizzard's perspective, it solves any problem of trying to balance the two factions.

For raid balancing, if Blizzard does go through with this, I'd expect them to work on encounters balanced for 36 and 18 people, at least initially or on the earlier raid dungeons. It's another way to make raiding more casual-friendly.

james · 07/19/06, 10:49 AM

4 paladins (for BoL) really improves their healing efficiency.

Kalroth · 07/19/06, 10:49 AM

While giving Horde Paladins and Alliance Shamans would be a very quick and simple way to balance the factions, I highly doubt that Blizzard wants to go down that road since it would pretty much invalidate all the (hard) work they've been spending on creating two different factions.

Personally I see Shaman totem fixes in TBC as a much more realistic alternative. But then again, Blizzard has been known to make some rather dubious decisions so I wouldn't put Undead Paladins in the "Not going to happen ever" category. :)

Originally Posted by Maledict

It would also break the 40 player raid model, as currently it's neatly balanced at 5 players of each class - whether or not that's optimal is another question, but there you go.

I can't remember the last time, if ever, that we followed that raid model. We're always overrepresented in 1-3 classes and thus low in 1-3 other classes, so I really doubt that the introduction of a new class is going to change much.

Ravock · 07/19/06, 10:51 AM

The idea that giving Shaman's raid wide totems would cause a desire to bring less Shaman's is just stupid. Perhaps some new mechanics would have to be developed as far as what a shaman can and cannot drop at a given time, but if I was horde (I'm not horde, I'm alliance) I could still see plenty of reasons to want 3-4 shamans on a raid without question. You might need two shamans setting TA totems spaced out enough to cover all of the healers / ranged DPS'ers, and have a 3rd shaman carefully placing a TA totem to benefit the melee DPS'ers without it being in range of the MT. You'd still need atleast 2 or 3 shamans to cover all of the melee DPS'ers with WF, GoA, and SoE totems.

I don't know... I just don't understand it. From my perspective it would solve a lot of issues, make the shaman class a bit more dynamic, and almost completely settle the long lasting debate of shamans vs paladins, horde vs alliance.

Malan · 07/19/06, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kalroth

I can't remember the last time, if ever, that we followed that raid model. We're always overrepresented in 1-3 classes and thus low in 1-3 other classes, so I really doubt that the introduction of a new class is going to change much.

/agree. We're usually lower on hunters and warlocks (2-3 of each) and take 6-7 warriors and maybe some extra mages or priests/druids.

Originally Posted by Ravock

he idea that giving Shaman's raid wide totems would cause a desire to bring less Shaman's is just stupid. Perhaps some new mechanics would have to be developed as far as what a shaman can and cannot drop at a given time

Yes, and thats what we told Eyonix and that other CM. No response from them. The mechanic that we want is NOT to just suddenly have every totem effect every person in the raid, because as you said, the problems with Tranquil Air would be huge just as one example. Best mechanic I saw suggested was that shamans would be able to "conjure" a "raid totem item" that they would distribute to players through the trade window - with each player only being able to hold one raid totem at any time (making them only able to get totems from one shaman at a time). That Raid Totem item would allow them to get the buffs from that particular shaman, no matter what group they were in, as long as they were in range of the totems. (Or just make the range restriction go away completely. Not like range affects a pally's blessings)