1.12 Threat Changes - Are Increase Effects Multiplicative Also?

Jekar · 07/19/06, 12:51 PM

Has anyone tested, or heard confirmation from Blizzard on how something like Defensive Stance + Defiance will work in 1.12?

If threat reduction abilities are being changed to all multiplicative, it would make sense that increase effects would be calculated with the same method. But just because it makes sense doesn't mean Blizzard will do it that way.

Here is what I mean:

1.11 - Defensive Stance (+30%) & Defiance (+15%) = 145% (100% + 30% +15%) threat generated

1.12 (if multiplicative) Defensive Stance & Defiance = 149.5% (100% * 1.30 * 1.15)

I don't want to call this a buff for Horde, but I'd take 4.5% more damage before I pull aggro off of our tanks if I can get it. Alliance hopefully doesn't care with BoS, I'm not even sure why they have to pay attention to aggro generation.

Jekar · 07/19/06, 5:52 PM

It appears no one knows the answer to this so far, so does anyone have a link or a write-up on the methodology used to derive the threat values for abilities so that this could be tested on the PTR?

Ultramax · 07/19/06, 5:59 PM

Since PTR has been up all of about 8 hours I doubt anyone tested anything.

Values
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...p=1#post596760

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro

Ultramax · 07/19/06, 6:02 PM

Well holy shit. Apparently Kenco did manage to get onto PTR.

The threat modifiers for Bear tanks are the same as Warriors: 130% for Bear Form and Defensive Stance, or 149.5% if you have 5/5 Defiance or Feral Instinct.

Jekar · 07/19/06, 6:23 PM

Awesome, I had not seen that update to Kenco's thread, but that answers my question. Thank you for catching that.

I see it as a very slight win for the Horde, basically a free subtelty enchant for all of us.

Sticks · 07/19/06, 6:43 PM

Does that mean that bears get a 2.6 multiplier on maul/swipe compared to 2.2 this patch? ( 1*1.3*1.15*1.75 vs 1+0.3+0.15+0.75)

arch · 07/19/06, 8:45 PM

Improved expose armor + bear tank with crazy gear = stay a your damn bar if you want warriors, we dont need you anymore ?

Anyway, does druids still scale better with gear than warriors even with the shield slam buff?

sulliwan · 07/19/06, 9:27 PM

Originally Posted by arch

Improved expose armor + bear tank with crazy gear = stay a your damn bar if you want warriors, we dont need you anymore ?

Anyway, does druids still scale better with gear than warriors even with the shield slam buff?

How many pieces of feral loot besides end of dreams and ghoul skin tunic have you seen from naxx? :P

The threat still scales better, I see absolutely no way to get anywhere close to the damage mitigation a warrior has though.

Schnappi · 07/19/06, 9:28 PM

Originally Posted by arch

Anyway, does druids still scale better with gear than warriors even with the shield slam buff?

Yes. Even though the damage scales now, warrior threat is still (innate threat + damage).

1 extra damage on Shield Slam = 1.45 extra threat for a warrior.
1 extra damage on Maul = 2.2 (or maybe even 2.6 now) extra threat for a druid.
A crit on SS gives less than double the threat.
A crit on Maul gives double threat.

That being said, I still love the recent buff to Shield Slam.

Kenco · 07/20/06, 2:01 AM

Just got off the PTR then, and defiance is definitely 1.3 * 1.15 = 1.495.

Kasi · 07/20/06, 2:06 AM

Well if you're a feral already who does tank a lot, I'd hope you have the warhammer from AQ which is better than EoD for tanking anyhow. Ghoul skin is fantastic though. There is enough frost leather gear to get a good frost tanking set. there are a couple other pieces of leather as well, but they're more suited towards rogues. The pieces though that I'd think would be fantastic for a feral druid is that sweet Cryptfiend Silk Cloak from Anub and the ring from the instructor. Most of the armor pieces from AQ are still excellent and have high enough item levels. If only they would make a trinket that could really displace the old staples though.

♦ Praetorian · 07/20/06, 2:10 AM

Originally Posted by Kenco

Just got off the PTR then, and defiance is definitely 1.3 * 1.15 = 1.495.

Awesome. While I've got you here, quick question(s) that I'd been wondering about:

Tank has 10k threat. Mob is beating on tank.
Ranged DPS guy has 12k. If he were in melee range, he'd pull aggro, but at range he does not.

Tank taunts the mob. What effect?

Same scenario as above, except add:
Melee DPS guy who reaches 11.5k threat and pulls aggro.
Ranged DPS guy has 12k, still, at range.
Tank taunt the mob. What effect?

Melthar · 07/20/06, 2:51 AM

Originally Posted by Sticks

Does that mean that bears get a 2.6 multiplier on maul/swipe compared to 2.2 this patch? ( 1*1.3*1.15*1.75 vs 1+0.3+0.15+0.75)

Yellow bear damage was already ~2.54 I believe..

(maul/swipe damage*1.75)*(1+0.3+0.15)

Would be looking at about 2.61 with this change.

Jekar · 07/20/06, 3:07 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Originally Posted by Kenco

Just got off the PTR then, and defiance is definitely 1.3 * 1.15 = 1.495.

Awesome. While I've got you here, quick question(s) that I'd been wondering about:

Tank has 10k threat. Mob is beating on tank.
Ranged DPS guy has 12k. If he were in melee range, he'd pull aggro, but at range he does not.

Tank taunts the mob. What effect?

Same scenario as above, except add:
Melee DPS guy who reaches 11.5k threat and pulls aggro.
Ranged DPS guy has 12k, still, at range.
Tank taunt the mob. What effect?

Not sure if it's Kenco's write-up or another, but the mechanic I have seen stated from either his or the wowwiki write-up is that taunt gives you threat equivelant to the current target of the MOB, not necesarily the highest on the aggro list. And actually, that was Kenco's write-up now that I think about it, it's discussed along with some nice changes in taunt functionality from 1.11. I'll go cut&paste the section:

Recently (1.11.x), the behaviour of Taunt has been buffed slightly. It now does three things:
1) Taunt debuff. The mob is forced to attack you for 3 seconds. Later taunts by other players override this.
2) You are given threat equal to the mob's previous aggro target, permanently. Importantly, you won't necessarily get as much threat as the highest person on the mob's list, only as much as whoever is currently tanking it.
3) You gain complete aggro on the mob at the instant you taunt. Usually you would need 10% more threat to gain aggro (see section 3), but a taunt now gives you instant aggro on the mob. Of course if other people are generating significant threat on the mob, they could exceed your threat by more than 10% before the taunt debuff wears off, and will gain aggro as soon as it does. There is no limit to the amount of threat you can gain from Taunt.

Judia · 07/20/06, 4:09 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Originally Posted by Kenco

Just got off the PTR then, and defiance is definitely 1.3 * 1.15 = 1.495.

Awesome. While I've got you here, quick question(s) that I'd been wondering about:

Tank has 10k threat. Mob is beating on tank.
Ranged DPS guy has 12k. If he were in melee range, he'd pull aggro, but at range he does not.

Tank taunts the mob. What effect?

I was under the impression the taunt help tip state that taunt has no effect on mobs already targetting you.

Edit:
From the tooltip ""has no affect if the target is already attacking you"

Cluey · 07/20/06, 6:04 AM

How do the Threat (glove) and Subtlety (cloak) enchants work in this?

aarkh · 07/20/06, 6:16 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Tank has 10k threat. Mob is beating on tank.
Ranged DPS guy has 12k. If he were in melee range, he'd pull aggro, but at range he does not.

Tank taunts the mob. What effect?

Having tested this scenario, nothing happens. The ranged class will pull aggro at 13k as they would without the taunt.

Pyros · 07/20/06, 8:28 AM

I'm interested in knowing the effect of the change on enchants too. My math is pretty bad but, if it works the same way, that'd make threat to gloves act like more than 2%(2% of 149.5% is 2.99, so almost 3%) while subtelty would actually be nerfed(2% of 80%, so 78.4% instead of 78%?), assuming def stance for threat to gloves and zerk/battle stance for subtelty. I'm not too sure this is correct tho, especially with the negative one(would it be divided instead since it's a reduction or something?). Or maybe they are unaffected as a whole since they're enchants,but then it'd go against their "normalization" of threat effects.

♦ Praetorian · 07/20/06, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by aarkh

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Tank has 10k threat. Mob is beating on tank.
Ranged DPS guy has 12k. If he were in melee range, he'd pull aggro, but at range he does not.

Tank taunts the mob. What effect?

Having tested this scenario, nothing happens. The ranged class will pull aggro at 13k as they would without the taunt.

Right, this is my understanding as well. Question #1 was meant largely as a lead-in to Question #2. If someone pulls aggro at melee at 11.5k hate and then the MT taunts back, does he get 11.5k or 13k? Alternately, if you have MT at 10k and Ranged DPS at 12k and OT taunts and then MT taunts back, does that clone the 12k value?

♦ Malorum · 07/20/06, 10:31 AM

I dont think it clones the 12k value. From what ive seen in the above described scenario the MT would get the 11.5k hate. Alternately the MT and OT would essentially keep trading their own threat levels UNTIL the mob was to target one of the ranged DPS once he/she hit 13k. The taunt basically needs to go off at the point the ranged DPS pull aggro to replicate their hate because the mob would then be targetted on them. So yes theoretically two tanks could constantly switch aggro with taunts with the threat of ranged DPS still pulling aggro at the 130% threshold.

arch · 07/20/06, 10:34 AM

2) You are given threat equal to the mob's previous aggro target, permanently. Importantly, you won't necessarily get as much threat as the highest person on the mob's list, only as much as whoever is currently tanking it.

They way I understood it is that you won't get the aggro of the ranged player, so 11.5k it is.

talzar · 07/20/06, 11:10 AM

Keep in mind that while a warrior's threat is increased by the multiplicity, all other threat reduction is lower than normal if they are using multiple threat reduction. Where a warrior used to have 1.45 and now has 1.495 multiplier on threat, a rogue used to have 0.50 threat with BoSalv now has 0.56 because of the nature of .80 (Rogue passive modifier) * .70 (BoSalv). So it sounds nice when you see that warriors are generating more threat, but so is everyone else.

Does that make sense or did I miss something?

♦ Praetorian · 07/20/06, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by talzar

but so is everyone else.

Not if they're Horde they aren't. :)

Nite_Moogle · 07/20/06, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by talzar

So it sounds nice when you see that warriors are generating more threat, but so is everyone else [if they use Salvation].

That must be just awful.

Celandro · 07/20/06, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

The only way to increase your threat through taunt is for someone with more threat to pull agro (or taunt it), then have the MT taunt it back. With very carefull timing and KLH you could definately use a DPS warrior to artificially inflate the MTs threat, but at the risk of a resisted taunt and a dead dps warrior I am not sure it would ever be worth it. Alternatively, ranged classes pulling agro could be very usefull for tank threat inflation provided the tank is quick and the taunt is not resisted. As the mob has to actually cover ground to kill ranged dps, losing a raid member is less likely, and being able to increase your threat by 30% instantly is pretty huge when trying to stay ahead of rogues and dps warriors with much less fudge room. Another usefull aspect is that offtanks can potentially be MUCH closer to the MTs threat level provided they have taunted recently and allowed it to be taken back by the MT.

Would be safer to use a rogue to pull agro, evasion tank it for some seconds and then taunt it back and have the rogue vanish. You can get precious seconds of 0 incoming melee damage + increased agro on tank. There was a time in EQ when evasion rotation tanking worked well enough for Yelinak to only do 30K total damage in a fight (yes this is why sitting agro was nerfed).

Another way to safely pop up the agro, have a hunter get to 129% agro, step into melee range, pull agro, have warrior taunt, and hunter feign death.