Question for Elitist Jerks and any other guild who do high end pve content with a larger than optimal guild (say over 80 people).
Note that the guild has been together for a long time, we have a mix of casual players and hardcore, pvers and pvpers, strong community, friendships etc Gkicking a lot of people isn't really an option for us.
Problems we run into:
-gear is too spread amongst our top players becuase there just isn't enough to go around to cover everyone
-some nights we might have 60 people online... and only 40 can fit into the raid. How do we decide who gets in and how do we do dkp? We basically have a 'queue group' who have their character waiting outside the instance or logged inside/outside. They still earn dkp. This results in a) people in the queue group getting bored and b) people inside resenting the fact that people outside get 'free dkp' without having to do anything or pay repair bills etc But since we usually select the raid based on merit (esp for non farm content), if we didn't give dkp to the queue group how would they earn dkp?
-we are very inconsistent, sometimes we have a great night, other nights we wipe on farm content. This is probably due to the fact that we have some people in the raid who haven't done the encounters enough or aren't geared enough etc
As we went through BWL and MC we didn't really have that many problems because 75% of the raid could carry the rest so having a few undergeared people and newbs etc didn't really matter. However as we started going through AQ we realised that we really needed to be able to rely on everyone in the raid. So we started selecting the raid based on who had the best gear/experience/skill. Which allowed us to progress fairly fast but then when we had stuff on farm we would start subbing the rest of the people in and each week because of this we would have the chance to wipe on and struggle through old content.
I don't know exactly how many people EJ has but I heard that you guys used to run 2 simulataneous BWLs which means you are even bigger than us. Anyone have any tips or thoughts on how to manage the problems created by having a large guild?
Btw we killed C'thun a while ago, we aren't exactly struggling, but we are looking for ways to improve in PvE, without trimming the size of the guild down.
You can give half DKP to those who are doing nothing but sitting on their asses, as a wait list.
We did that until naxx... we give full now because the importance of replacing 1-2 players is so critical to each fight. Although the most we ever have on is 50 for a 40 man raid, and almost every night its 41-42 players, and we seem to get lucky in having the perfect class makeup every night... go figure?
My recommendation is to round robin each member, and use a half dkp wait system. Don't bias officers unless they're doing DKP or something you, as a raid leader, cannot live without. Don't slow shit down too much in the name of fairness.
My guild had some of the same challenges (however we're still in AQ), and I see it across the board for many of Horde guilds on my server. It's an issue of trying to be too considerate to everyone's needs. You need a relative core team, but also viable backups. The core raiding members can hit content hard, but will either burn out or have real life obligations, and you don't want "Johnny blue gear" just jumping in without knowing squat.
We have about 160 unique accounts. Everyone is ranked by raiding status.
Recruits - We're bringing you in to raid, be ready to roll.
Friends n Family (about 60 accounts) - Just like it reads. We're giving you a home, shaddup and like it. If you get in a raid, lucky you. These folks are "Bills cousin who works nights" and whatnot.
Members (about 50 accounts) - Those that raid 25-50% of the time.
Raiders (about 50 accounts) - We die a lot.
All the officers are considered raiders as well (because we're always on for raids anyway).
Basically, raiders go in and wipe a lot until content is considered farm. Then we start a cycle. This was tough at first getting everyone on board especially for things like MC. But heading into BWL where it is beneficial to have 3 or 4 warriors stacked in full might (especially when starting), the differences become apparent. But once things are being cleared regularly, we bring the new guys in, usually one at a time and train them up on each boss. I'm the druid class officer and I ensure my team can basically walk anyone in any class thru a boss fight. It also allows me to step out of a raid or miss a raid for personal reasons - my team is solid, I trust them without me.
It all boils down to my mantra: Honesty, Communication, Set Expectations. The raiders know they will get most of the gear first; however, I'm not about to let them get every single item, because the backup squad needs to be "raid viable". It works out well as our first 8/8 Stormrage just took a 6 month hiatus; yet we've got plenty of others that are reasonably set in gear.
You can give half DKP to those who are doing nothing but sitting on their asses, as a wait list.
That's a pretty shitty thing to do. Are the people who weren't allowed to go somehow less important? And if you give full credit, why would you suggest otherwise to someone else?
Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
-some nights we might have 60 people online... and only 40 can fit into the raid. How do we decide who gets in and how do we do dkp? We basically have a 'queue group' who have their character waiting outside the instance or logged inside/outside. They still earn dkp. This results in a) people in the queue group getting bored and b) people inside resenting the fact that people outside get 'free dkp' without having to do anything or pay repair bills etc But since we usually select the raid based on merit (esp for non farm content), if we didn't give dkp to the queue group how would they earn dkp?
If people are getting mad that others are earning free DKP for not being in the raid then I think that shows a lot about the type of person they are, in other words they would rather let someone else do the heavy lifting and they get the credit for it. They will also probably be the ones that once they get their gear from the instance will make people go while they try to get the sit out credit every single night, if they don't get the credit they will just not sign on.
I think people with that attitude are best cut off at the bud and will only be problems down the line. Personally I prefer to be in the raid over waiting for a spot, but if I was forced to sit out I would understand and be happy taking DKP credit for waiting, since you are on and ready to raid when everyone else is raiding, however do not honor any DKP if they are not able to drop everything and get to the raid the moment you need them.
Yeah there is no reason to penalize your raid alts with half DKP when they are probably willing to wipe just as much as everyone else. If you penalize them your causing more problems than you are solving. Having reliable backups is just as important as fielding a full raid on your raiding nights. Dont diminish their contributions.
Like Rareform said alot of this comes down to leadership and how well structured you are. Having some type of ranking system that distinguishes your casuals from your hardcore raiders will help to alleviate alot of the problems that you may be having. You need to be able to properly critique skill and attentiveness and use that has a guideline as to who to give raid invites to on a regular basis. Use class leaders to teach those that need teaching that may not raid as much as others. AQ may be less forgiving that other instances but you have to realize with the mixture of personnel that you have there may be a skill dropoff. Keep an eye on those who may alt on a frequent basis and are leeching DKP. If you to an instance that they need loot from but prefer to alt on a regular basis over someone who already has a full Tier 2 set (example) then reevaluation of that specific player may be in order.
We used to have a huge mix of casuals and hardcore raiders and in the end it just did our guild in. We had too much of a skill disparity between the two factions and it just led to more problems. Unfortunately you have to be realistic at times and evaluate your players properly. Another thing that helps is to keep the process transparent and constant communication within the guild about what the ranks mean and how your invites for raids are structured. Attendance isnt everything. Willingness to learn and skill can be just as important.
You can give half DKP to those who are doing nothing but sitting on their asses, as a wait list.
That's a pretty shitty thing to do. Are the people who weren't allowed to go somehow less important? And if you give full credit, why would you suggest otherwise to someone else?
I agree with you on that point: But, there are other things that people can do on the waitlist for a raid while earning DKP, besides just being on the waitlist, to increase the strength of the guild as a whole.
Farming various mats (ie. Gromsblood, Lotus, Stonescale, Thorium, Plaguebloom, Silversage, Winterwall Firewater, Dense Stone, Elemental Earth, Elemental Fire, Fused Wiring, various forms of leather/hide, felcloth, etc) is one perfect example. Depending on how many people you have on your waitlist (and given that the OP's guild is much further than my former guild, which may mean guildbank and consumables are not as large a problem), it could make a big difference. Also, ideally, at the top-level you are going to have people raiding 5+ hours a night, 5+ days per week. Putting gathering consumables for yourself, farming materials for flasks among other things, and trying to keep on top of repair bills, should you happen to have a very wipy night on non-lucrative bosses (ie. AQ40), is not exactly a sustainable cycle.
My previous guild did not, in fact, suggest this to people, and we were constantly suffering for flask mats as one key part of the equation, as well as having a fairly poor guildbank (though we hadn't sold any of our 90+ Elementium or god knows how many Nexus Crystals).
Saying something along the lines of "Hey, since you're on the waitlist, would you be willing to take a few circles around EPL looking for [X]?"
The one thing that you have to realize is that DKP is not *payment* per se, but a way to gauge who gets priority on loot. It allows for an even distribution of loot with raid attendance (In theory, ideally, that is). If the people on the waitlist are attending the same length of time as the people in the raid proper, well, then, they should get points commensurate with that. Even if they aren't "Doing the hard stuff and wiping and...", there is still the opportunity cost that needs to be recognized.
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
# Award full DKP to anyone who is online and available to raid. That way, there isn't a penalty to sitting, and you have a large group of people to swap in or replace, should it be needed.
# Raid spots go by class need and 90-day attendance %. First, I fill up class spots with the people who have the highest 90-day attendance, people I know will get a spot anyway. When I've got about 30 people in the raid, all of which are the highest attendance people in their class, then I start filling spots based on what we're doing that night and use 90-day attendance to determine who gets priority.
The benefit to using 90-day attendance is that it rewards people who are consistently online and available to help the guild. It also doesn't penalize people that can't log on 45 minutes before raids to get a spot. I start invites about 20 minutes early for the high-attendance regulars, then save the "swing spots" for 5 minutes till the hour, which is the official invite time. Any high-attendance members can still log on just in time and still be guaranteed a raid spot.
If newer, less experienced members want in on raids, they can diligently attend every raid (or be on standby) for 90 days. By the time they're a full member, they have better attendance than some of the older members, and can take their spot. Don't want some new guy taking your raid spot? Maintain better attendance. It enforces healthy competition, which is good for the guild.
Basically, raiders go in and wipe a lot until content is considered farm. Then we start a cycle. This was tough at first getting everyone on board especially for things like MC. But heading into BWL where it is beneficial to have 3 or 4 warriors stacked in full might (especially when starting), the differences become apparent. But once things are being cleared regularly, we bring the new guys in, usually one at a time and train them up on each boss. I'm the druid class officer and I ensure my team can basically walk anyone in any class thru a boss fight. It also allows me to step out of a raid or miss a raid for personal reasons - my team is solid, I trust them without me.
Thats the $$$. Making sure every single person understands how a fight works, why you do certain things on a fight, and what to do if things go wrong. Just explaining the psychology of the fight to every last person helps, instead of "ok you heal Tank 3.". Sure the healer might get the job done, but in the end - he didn't "learn" anything. Teaching every last member as many fights as you can is definitely the best way to go about things, and promotes a much healthier guild.
No reason not to award full DKP to those waiting outside, they're putting in as much time as anyone else. For non-farm stuff definitely try to make your people understand that you *need* the A Team. Maybe even write up a post on your MB pertaining to this. If you want to beat new content, you need to have your most active, well geared, best raiders. Not to say that others easily couldn't fill those shoes, but everyone will get their chance, and more often than not - its the active - well geared people who get burnt out and quit, so you can pull someone else up to fill his shoes.
Having raided in EQ1 and sat through the fuckblock that is Plane of Time, I really can't fathom giving 50% DKP to those waiting. For those not so informed about EQ1 and specifically the end of the PoP expansion, Plane of Time was split into several phases. The first one required you to be only 54, while the rest allowed 72. So you had, even on a day where you only have 72-75 people on, 20 people sitting outside waiting an hour for phase 1 to end (or more hours, if you wiped, which everyone did in the very start). I'm personally MORE bored while sitting out than playing, even if we're doing something where we wipe and it costs repairmoney. Sure, I can farm pots and shit - But gee golly, I do that outside of raid time anyhow so that I can use them on raids, not so I can sit out and farm more pots. A lot of people will be bored sitting out, so its generally good to try and minimize how many need to do that (Especially if you're approaching the so-called 'bleeding edge' where people have everything they need already).
I suggest pretty much what Digo said. Get a decent size of the raid in based on attendance, then look closely at class balance and what you're doing (Only if you need to. Anything below Naxx really doesn't need class balance as long as you have at a bare minimum 3 of each class, and a few more warriors especially if you're in BWL/AQ/Naxx). Bias is bad, but attendance is a great way to reward those who show up more consistently without 'cheating' and inviting people you favor more. Most likely though, your favor will be with those who are your most consistent showups.
We usually start raid invites 20-30 minutes before, and look at what we have 5-10 minutes before and make any final adjustments around then so that we can call move as soon as raid time starts (or start if we're already there).
1. full DKP for all able main-raiders.
2. Track attendence and if certain classes (like druids) have half people with 80% att and half with 40-6ish, recruit more druids. Ideally you'll want to get 45 people with 80%+ attendence. Obviously this is a goal and not an immediate reality for most goals, but it's something you want to shoot for.
Two notes .. we don't award DKP for those not in the raid, instead .. they get priority at the next raid, or the raid of their choosing. So if a shaman is stuck sitting out of BWL, he can either go to AQ the next day or secure his spot in for BWL the following week.
Secondly, Digo noted the 90-day attendance %. I am a huge advocate of periodic reviews. Our guild is largely post collegiate; however we do have a solid minority in college and a few in high school (It wasn't until we were at Golemagg that I found out our first MT was actually 15 and had green hair .. but he rocked!). With my team, I do a basic 90 day checkup to see where peopl are, if they need a break, etc etc. It gives a chance for people to take some time off, and come back when they've recharged their batteries .. and all of us have done it, be it a week or two months. Also doing this, it fosters additional communication. So people start letting you know weeks in advance of that fishing trip or wedding.
DoD is a casual raiding guild so we have our own hurdles to overcome. We don't mandate you raid 7 days a week, and we don't take the same 40 people every night. To compensate, we have a large pool of players to choose from, and perform rotations to get people geared up and moved into new raids as efficiently as possible. I've modified phpRaid to count how many times someone has signed up for a raid and missed the raid by being left in the queue. This displays as a number in parenthesis next to their name:
This helps the class officers decide who has missed too many runs and should be rotated in over other people who have already been raiding awhile. While this is really more applicable to startup runs like Onyxia and MC, we try to be flexible in BWL as well. Ultimately, as raid difficulty increases, the "total queued" count becomes less of a priority, and is replaced with how well geared you are, how well you play, how consistantly you show up to learn new bosses, etc.
Thankfully, I have an extremely attentive set of officers who know their classes' players very well and it is relatively painless to determine how rotations are done each week. Also, FWIW, the class officers make specific requests of their players in our forums as to who needs what, and which players require which runs, which also help in the decision-making process.
Any guild that doesn't use a tracking system for their raid invites is begging for drama.
Two notes .. we don't award DKP for those not in the raid, instead .. they get priority at the next raid, or the raid of their choosing.
You're encouraging a diluted loot pool and people that don't have the same level of experience entering your raid groups. You're going to find it very difficult to make consistent progress on new content. An unbiased tracking system is the most fair and efficient means of preventing drama while ensuring that you have a group of capable, experienced, and geared raiders.
Any guild that doesn't use a tracking system for their raid invites is begging for drama.
Two notes .. we don't award DKP for those not in the raid, instead .. they get priority at the next raid, or the raid of their choosing.
You're encouraging a diluted loot pool and people that don't have the same level of experience entering your raid groups. You're going to find it very difficult to make consistent progress on new content. An unbiased tracking system is the most fair and efficient means of preventing drama while ensuring that you have a group of capable, experienced, and geared raiders.
We don't use a sign-up sheet. It's on the class officer or the class rep that loads that class for the raid. However, I think the quote doesn't keep in context what I said previously - we have our Raider rank; therefore, this issue is more for the farmed content. BWL/MC are farmed - we rotate all the time. In AQ, we are at Huhuran so we're taking our top team (he goes down tonight!), but even so, our members who are not the "wipe all the time" raiders are getting prepared. We respect the fact that the same 40 people can't make every single raid, or sometimes have to leave early. I've heard all the excuses .. gotta get up early for work tomorrow, family engagement, got sick, got a final, and my absolute favorite "Guys, my son just pooped in the tub, I gotta go clean it up".
Digo does have a point though. Because you dont award DKP to those that alt out in the long run your going to have a big disparity in gear between your "top" raiders and your "fill ins". We used to do the same thing about 9 months ago and changed after we saw the drama it caused. You have to have some type of motivational factor to keep people to WANT to raid. If there is no incentive for alting then whats the point? I might as well go jerk off and watch TV knowing i wont get any loot in god knows how long because i dont have any DKP to spend to begin with.
Digo does have a point though. Because you dont award DKP to those that alt out in the long run your going to have a big disparity in gear between your "top" raiders and your "fill ins". We used to do the same thing about 9 months ago and changed after we saw the drama it caused. You have to have some type of motivational factor to keep people to WANT to raid. If there is no incentive for alting then whats the point? I might as well go jerk off and watch TV knowing i wont get any loot in god knows how long because i dont have any DKP to spend to begin with.
Well .. uhm... we don't *shrugs*. I dunno, maybe it goes back to the setting of expectations. We let people know where they stand when they join the guild. I think there's also the arguement that "they don't deserve DKP because they're not in the raid". So it boils down to what does the guild feel like doing to resolve overage. More than one way to handle it is all, just find what works best, stick to it, and don't make exceptions.
We guarantee the next raid slot to those who were bumped, in the end the amount you earn is fairly well equalized. In naxx it is currently full to the wait list, in the past it was half. As long as people aren't purposely avoiding the instance to get the same as those inside giving full is the way to go...
Digo does have a point though. Because you dont award DKP to those that alt out in the long run your going to have a big disparity in gear between your "top" raiders and your "fill ins". We used to do the same thing about 9 months ago and changed after we saw the drama it caused. You have to have some type of motivational factor to keep people to WANT to raid. If there is no incentive for alting then whats the point? I might as well go jerk off and watch TV knowing i wont get any loot in god knows how long because i dont have any DKP to spend to begin with.
Well .. uhm... we don't *shrugs*. I dunno, maybe it goes back to the setting of expectations. We let people know where they stand when they join the guild. I think there's also the arguement that "they don't deserve DKP because they're not in the raid". So it boils down to what does the guild feel like doing to resolve overage. More than one way to handle it is all, just find what works best, stick to it, and don't make exceptions.
Im just not a big fan of penalizing those who want to raid but cant due to numbers. Just from my experience in the long run it leads to discontent. I find having an entire guild that is focused on progression and has the same goals and relative attendance percentages tends to do better in the long run. Like you said different things work different for other guilds. You just have to find what works for YOU. Although i will say that what you have set up currently is VERY rare in terms of a lack of attrition (Thats just from my experience).
Digo does have a point though. Because you dont award DKP to those that alt out in the long run your going to have a big disparity in gear between your "top" raiders and your "fill ins". We used to do the same thing about 9 months ago and changed after we saw the drama it caused. You have to have some type of motivational factor to keep people to WANT to raid. If there is no incentive for alting then whats the point? I might as well go jerk off and watch TV knowing i wont get any loot in god knows how long because i dont have any DKP to spend to begin with.
Well .. uhm... we don't *shrugs*. I dunno, maybe it goes back to the setting of expectations. We let people know where they stand when they join the guild. I think there's also the arguement that "they don't deserve DKP because they're not in the raid". So it boils down to what does the guild feel like doing to resolve overage. More than one way to handle it is all, just find what works best, stick to it, and don't make exceptions.
Im just not a big fan of penalizing those who want to raid but cant due to numbers. Just from my experience in the long run it leads to discontent. I find having an entire guild that is focused on progression and has the same goals and relative attendance percentages tends to do better in the long run. Like you said different things work different for other guilds. You just have to find what works for YOU. Although i will say that what you have set up currently is VERY rare in terms of a lack of attrition (Thats just from my experience).
Its certainly important to judge your OWN guild when compared to other guild's suggestions.
Some guilds work just fine with merit systems, others work just fine with bid... otherwise with null dkp (often upgrade rules).
Honestly though most guild leaders and raid leaders strive heavily toward being fair.
What is fair when it comes to being bumped from a raid?
1. Most people should be treated equally when it comes to bumpage... besides those special people (your dkp guy, your mod writer, the guy who sounds like a robot).
2. People who get kicked should get full DKP unless people are abusing this by showing up late, or sitting out continuously (although some argument can be made for the latter... ontime DKP will solve some of this).
3. Those who get bumped should do so somehow in a system that makes it as even as possible. Fortunately for us we get about 41-42 each night... so this is simple. But generally we round robin based on class bumps. Generally guarantee a next raid invite to the bumped.
4. Officers need to be smart about recruiting.
That being said... we have to bump mercilessly on thaddius due to lag... almost nothing you can do about this.
And on patchwerk we have to take our top DPS and geared healers. But otherwise the rest is all good.
Im just not a big fan of penalizing those who want to raid but cant due to numbers. Just from my experience in the long run it leads to discontent. I find having an entire guild that is focused on progression and has the same goals and relative attendance percentages tends to do better in the long run. Like you said different things work different for other guilds. You just have to find what works for YOU. Although i will say that what you have set up currently is VERY rare in terms of a lack of attrition (Thats just from my experience).
Oh I agree with you there. But all guilds may run into different issues with attendance. I'm not going to cut out a stellar member because they have a business trip overseas for three weeks, or the guy the guy who can never make a Tuesday run. I find our guild actually is very focused on progression. We have a rogue who hit +220 NR and he's not even ranked as a Raider. I think part of it is the server representation and style. We tend to have a slightly more casual server and less overall raiding guilds and raiding experience. Only one guild has killed C'thun on both Horde & Alliance. We sometimes have attrition, but we have a bit of an internal base to not entirely crimp us. We've also had the occasional person quit because they felt they weren't getting enough raid time.
It definitely boils down to what works for the people involved.
Question: What do you guys feel like is the ideal raid roster size for an overall raiding guild, and per class?
We tried to go with a lean and mean guild for a long time, around 50-55 raiders, and it just wasn't working out, too many people with too many RL conflicts on a regular basis, most of our players are young professionals with jobs and family.
We recently expanded to around 70-75 raiders, trying for around 8-9 in each class, and it's worked wonders, we can fill the raids consistently, people are pumped to show up, people can take a couple days off if they're feeling burnt out, if people are tired later on in the evening we can substitute them out without harming the raid, and if we want to stack classes for an encounter we can do so.
What are the thoughts on roster size and roster depth for each class? From a gearing timeline I can certainly see how a larger roster is going to make it so our overall gearing and individual training is slower.
As a guild we ran about 55~ deep for a year. Usually we had 35-45 on during any given raid, and had the more typical raid guild set up, with a few people always making raids.
This format, at least in my view is not ideal. Maybe as Alliance where your pool for geared recruits can beat attrition, it'll work. It's not a good idea though. Having more like 80~ people that can raid forces people to sit out, but in the long run it's worth it. You can stack your raid to more ideal levels (need 7 tanks? got it. need 8 priests or shaman? got it, need to drop 3 heaelers for 3 DPS, no problem) and allow for attrition to be a lot less painful.
If you want 8 priests and you have 10 at 80-90% attendance you're doing pretty well right? Some guilds might need 16 at 50% activity. Although don't be fooled by DKP numbers since those will normalize :)
I don't think you can just shoot for a roster size, as attendance and play styles dictate the true attendance and numbers you'll see each night. Every guild has that dude who is 100%. Probably given the forums here... some of them are YOU. You count more as a reliable slot than Mr. 20%'er. All that has to be considered when talking about an ideal raid roster size.
Ideally? 40 people of 100% activity I suppose... with some well geared "other classes" they can box to stack raids.
Our guild runs almost the exact same as what Zagil of overrated metioned... about 55 deep for about 35-45 per night. Only went up when naxx came out cause people just kinda... "came back".
Unlike the overrated guy though I think this is ideal. We share info a LOT - so boxing to stack is trivial. Plus, the gear distribution is done that much faster... the smaller the sustainable raid roster, the faster people get their gear, and the better geared you are overall. Pushing the line is nice if you can at least get the classes you need. Overrecruiting can lead to a lot of problems anyway right? (Like this post?).
07/20/06, 5:31 AM
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