Question for Elitist Jerks and any other guild who do high end pve content with a larger than optimal guild (say over 80 people).

Note that the guild has been together for a long time, we have a mix of casual players and hardcore, pvers and pvpers, strong community, friendships etc Gkicking a lot of people isn't really an option for us.

Problems we run into:
-gear is too spread amongst our top players becuase there just isn't enough to go around to cover everyone

-some nights we might have 60 people online... and only 40 can fit into the raid. How do we decide who gets in and how do we do dkp? We basically have a 'queue group' who have their character waiting outside the instance or logged inside/outside. They still earn dkp. This results in a) people in the queue group getting bored and b) people inside resenting the fact that people outside get 'free dkp' without having to do anything or pay repair bills etc But since we usually select the raid based on merit (esp for non farm content), if we didn't give dkp to the queue group how would they earn dkp?

-we are very inconsistent, sometimes we have a great night, other nights we wipe on farm content. This is probably due to the fact that we have some people in the raid who haven't done the encounters enough or aren't geared enough etc

As we went through BWL and MC we didn't really have that many problems because 75% of the raid could carry the rest so having a few undergeared people and newbs etc didn't really matter. However as we started going through AQ we realised that we really needed to be able to rely on everyone in the raid. So we started selecting the raid based on who had the best gear/experience/skill. Which allowed us to progress fairly fast but then when we had stuff on farm we would start subbing the rest of the people in and each week because of this we would have the chance to wipe on and struggle through old content.

I don't know exactly how many people EJ has but I heard that you guys used to run 2 simulataneous BWLs which means you are even bigger than us. Anyone have any tips or thoughts on how to manage the problems created by having a large guild?

Btw we killed C'thun a while ago, we aren't exactly struggling, but we are looking for ways to improve in PvE, without trimming the size of the guild down.

My guild had some of the same challenges (however we're still in AQ), and I see it across the board for many of Horde guilds on my server. It's an issue of trying to be too considerate to everyone's needs. You need a relative core team, but also viable backups. The core raiding members can hit content hard, but will either burn out or have real life obligations, and you don't want "Johnny blue gear" just jumping in without knowing squat.

We have about 160 unique accounts. Everyone is ranked by raiding status.

Recruits - We're bringing you in to raid, be ready to roll.
Friends n Family (about 60 accounts) - Just like it reads. We're giving you a home, shaddup and like it. If you get in a raid, lucky you. These folks are "Bills cousin who works nights" and whatnot.
Members (about 50 accounts) - Those that raid 25-50% of the time.
Raiders (about 50 accounts) - We die a lot.

All the officers are considered raiders as well (because we're always on for raids anyway).

Basically, raiders go in and wipe a lot until content is considered farm. Then we start a cycle. This was tough at first getting everyone on board especially for things like MC. But heading into BWL where it is beneficial to have 3 or 4 warriors stacked in full might (especially when starting), the differences become apparent. But once things are being cleared regularly, we bring the new guys in, usually one at a time and train them up on each boss. I'm the druid class officer and I ensure my team can basically walk anyone in any class thru a boss fight. It also allows me to step out of a raid or miss a raid for personal reasons - my team is solid, I trust them without me.

It all boils down to my mantra: Honesty, Communication, Set Expectations. The raiders know they will get most of the gear first; however, I'm not about to let them get every single item, because the backup squad needs to be "raid viable". It works out well as our first 8/8 Stormrage just took a 6 month hiatus; yet we've got plenty of others that are reasonably set in gear.

That's a pretty shitty thing to do. Are the people who weren't allowed to go somehow less important? And if you give full credit, why would you suggest otherwise to someone else?

If people are getting mad that others are earning free DKP for not being in the raid then I think that shows a lot about the type of person they are, in other words they would rather let someone else do the heavy lifting and they get the credit for it. They will also probably be the ones that once they get their gear from the instance will make people go while they try to get the sit out credit every single night, if they don't get the credit they will just not sign on.

I think people with that attitude are best cut off at the bud and will only be problems down the line. Personally I prefer to be in the raid over waiting for a spot, but if I was forced to sit out I would understand and be happy taking DKP credit for waiting, since you are on and ready to raid when everyone else is raiding, however do not honor any DKP if they are not able to drop everything and get to the raid the moment you need them.

I agree with you on that point: But, there are other things that people can do on the waitlist for a raid while earning DKP, besides just being on the waitlist, to increase the strength of the guild as a whole.

Farming various mats (ie. Gromsblood, Lotus, Stonescale, Thorium, Plaguebloom, Silversage, Winterwall Firewater, Dense Stone, Elemental Earth, Elemental Fire, Fused Wiring, various forms of leather/hide, felcloth, etc) is one perfect example. Depending on how many people you have on your waitlist (and given that the OP's guild is much further than my former guild, which may mean guildbank and consumables are not as large a problem), it could make a big difference. Also, ideally, at the top-level you are going to have people raiding 5+ hours a night, 5+ days per week. Putting gathering consumables for yourself, farming materials for flasks among other things, and trying to keep on top of repair bills, should you happen to have a very wipy night on non-lucrative bosses (ie. AQ40), is not exactly a sustainable cycle.

My previous guild did not, in fact, suggest this to people, and we were constantly suffering for flask mats as one key part of the equation, as well as having a fairly poor guildbank (though we hadn't sold any of our 90+ Elementium or god knows how many Nexus Crystals).

Saying something along the lines of "Hey, since you're on the waitlist, would you be willing to take a few circles around EPL looking for [X]?"

The one thing that you have to realize is that DKP is not *payment* per se, but a way to gauge who gets priority on loot. It allows for an even distribution of loot with raid attendance (In theory, ideally, that is). If the people on the waitlist are attending the same length of time as the people in the raid proper, well, then, they should get points commensurate with that. Even if they aren't "Doing the hard stuff and wiping and...", there is still the opportunity cost that needs to be recognized.

Pretty simple:

# Award full DKP to anyone who is online and available to raid. That way, there isn't a penalty to sitting, and you have a large group of people to swap in or replace, should it be needed.

# Raid spots go by class need and 90-day attendance %. First, I fill up class spots with the people who have the highest 90-day attendance, people I know will get a spot anyway. When I've got about 30 people in the raid, all of which are the highest attendance people in their class, then I start filling spots based on what we're doing that night and use 90-day attendance to determine who gets priority.

The benefit to using 90-day attendance is that it rewards people who are consistently online and available to help the guild. It also doesn't penalize people that can't log on 45 minutes before raids to get a spot. I start invites about 20 minutes early for the high-attendance regulars, then save the "swing spots" for 5 minutes till the hour, which is the official invite time. Any high-attendance members can still log on just in time and still be guaranteed a raid spot.

If newer, less experienced members want in on raids, they can diligently attend every raid (or be on standby) for 90 days. By the time they're a full member, they have better attendance than some of the older members, and can take their spot. Don't want some new guy taking your raid spot? Maintain better attendance. It enforces healthy competition, which is good for the guild.

Thats the $$$. Making sure every single person understands how a fight works, why you do certain things on a fight, and what to do if things go wrong. Just explaining the psychology of the fight to every last person helps, instead of "ok you heal Tank 3.". Sure the healer might get the job done, but in the end - he didn't "learn" anything. Teaching every last member as many fights as you can is definitely the best way to go about things, and promotes a much healthier guild.

No reason not to award full DKP to those waiting outside, they're putting in as much time as anyone else. For non-farm stuff definitely try to make your people understand that you *need* the A Team. Maybe even write up a post on your MB pertaining to this. If you want to beat new content, you need to have your most active, well geared, best raiders. Not to say that others easily couldn't fill those shoes, but everyone will get their chance, and more often than not - its the active - well geared people who get burnt out and quit, so you can pull someone else up to fill his shoes.

1. full DKP for all able main-raiders.
2. Track attendence and if certain classes (like druids) have half people with 80% att and half with 40-6ish, recruit more druids. Ideally you'll want to get 45 people with 80%+ attendence. Obviously this is a goal and not an immediate reality for most goals, but it's something you want to shoot for.

Two notes .. we don't award DKP for those not in the raid, instead .. they get priority at the next raid, or the raid of their choosing. So if a shaman is stuck sitting out of BWL, he can either go to AQ the next day or secure his spot in for BWL the following week.

Secondly, Digo noted the 90-day attendance %. I am a huge advocate of periodic reviews. Our guild is largely post collegiate; however we do have a solid minority in college and a few in high school (It wasn't until we were at Golemagg that I found out our first MT was actually 15 and had green hair .. but he rocked!). With my team, I do a basic 90 day checkup to see where peopl are, if they need a break, etc etc. It gives a chance for people to take some time off, and come back when they've recharged their batteries .. and all of us have done it, be it a week or two months. Also doing this, it fosters additional communication. So people start letting you know weeks in advance of that fishing trip or wedding.

DoD is a casual raiding guild so we have our own hurdles to overcome. We don't mandate you raid 7 days a week, and we don't take the same 40 people every night. To compensate, we have a large pool of players to choose from, and perform rotations to get people geared up and moved into new raids as efficiently as possible. I've modified phpRaid to count how many times someone has signed up for a raid and missed the raid by being left in the queue. This displays as a number in parenthesis next to their name:

http://forums.descendantsofdraenor.c...iew&raid_id=72

This helps the class officers decide who has missed too many runs and should be rotated in over other people who have already been raiding awhile. While this is really more applicable to startup runs like Onyxia and MC, we try to be flexible in BWL as well. Ultimately, as raid difficulty increases, the "total queued" count becomes less of a priority, and is replaced with how well geared you are, how well you play, how consistantly you show up to learn new bosses, etc.

Thankfully, I have an extremely attentive set of officers who know their classes' players very well and it is relatively painless to determine how rotations are done each week. Also, FWIW, the class officers make specific requests of their players in our forums as to who needs what, and which players require which runs, which also help in the decision-making process.

We don't use a sign-up sheet. It's on the class officer or the class rep that loads that class for the raid. However, I think the quote doesn't keep in context what I said previously - we have our Raider rank; therefore, this issue is more for the farmed content. BWL/MC are farmed - we rotate all the time. In AQ, we are at Huhuran so we're taking our top team (he goes down tonight!), but even so, our members who are not the "wipe all the time" raiders are getting prepared. We respect the fact that the same 40 people can't make every single raid, or sometimes have to leave early. I've heard all the excuses .. gotta get up early for work tomorrow, family engagement, got sick, got a final, and my absolute favorite "Guys, my son just pooped in the tub, I gotta go clean it up".