Right now, I feel my mage is broken. Note, this isn't a whine thread about not doing enough damage or whatever, I do fine in raids, infact, I top damage-meters pretty nicely in my guild, sometimes getting beaten by our resident combat dagger rogue.
I remember back when BWL was released, Broodlord Lashlayer was a fight where I had to watch my damn threat. Now, i've just come out of a run where I decided to confirm my thoughts. I have the 3/8 Netherwind Set Bonus, Frost Channeling for 30% reduced threat and Blessing of Salvation (Yes, I know i'm Alliance). I spammed max rank Frostbolt for the duration of the fight, starting at one sunder, and popped my trinkets (ToEP/ZHC) whenever they cooled (No Tear drop yet.) I -COULD NOT- get aggro. A warlock got aggro. Another warlock got aggro. I tried my godamn hardest, I could NOT physically get aggro on a fight that's designed to be aggro-sensitive. I ended up doing 15k more damage than second place. The warlocks who gained aggro placed around 10-12th on the damage-meter.
Am I the only mage who really thinks that playing a mage is super-boring right now? I used to have to watch for a string of crits and slow down, and try to manage my aggro. With 5/5 winters chill on Broodlord and an Oomkin druid in my group for 3% crit, I managed to crit 7 times in a row on the Broodlord fight and STILL NOT GRAB AGGRO OVER A LOCK. If I can't pull aggro on Broodlord while trying to, then there's no way I can pull aggro on a regular fight. It's just godamn boring. I'm really tempted to respec fire and see if I can grab aggro with some nice ignites.
EDIT: I'm pretty well equipped, sporting about 460-470 spell damage and 15% crit unbuffed. I usually use Brilliant Wizard Oils to boost to 500+ and 16%+ crit (Excluding AI/MOTW/Kings extra crit from intellect).
Try respeccing fire and popping Combustion and rolling a 4-digit Ignite on Broodlord.
But no, seriously, this is part of why threat modifiers are being changed in 1.12 -- Mages are the primary culprit. With BoS and Frost Channeling you are generating 40% normal threat, minus the NW 3pc (not sure about order of operations on factoring this in). It's still pretty crazy even in 1.12, though. In 1.12, an Alliance mage without 3pc NW will only generate 49% of normal hate. Combined with the 30% ranged aggro buffer, this means that if a tank has 10000 hate on a mob, a mage must do 26530 damage (!!) in order to pull aggro.
Also, pulling aggro isn't something to strive for and I never understood mages who play with that as confirmation of how good they are at the class. Aggro pulling just places unnecessary variables into an otherwise stable fight, and with the increasing amount of bosses with unforgiveable AoE attacks, can get your raid killed. Topping damage meters while staying under the threat threshhold is a much more impressive feat, imo.
As far as mages being a broken class, no, I don't think so. In a way, they might be 'boring' on the raid side (at least, as a Frost mage who is relegated mostly to one attack), but I feel that that's really how they were intended to be played. After the 1.11 talent revamp I really feel that mages are right where they need to be.
Glad to see you're activly trying to fuck up your guild's boss kills. Be happy you don't get aggro, I always hated having to spam rank 4-5 shadowbolt on Broodlord so I wouldn't pull aggro (and this is with the MD imp threat reduction). I'd still be on top of aggro meters and 10th-15th on dmg....
Didn't know the actual math behind it before. I'm pretty sure 3-piece Netherwind reduces 100 damage worth of threat from each spell (1000 frostbolt generating threat as if it hit for 900). I'm really tempted to respec fire since we're just starting to attempt some Naxx. I think i'll try it out. Hey, maybe i'll even pull aggro! The only thing that worries me is that our ENTIRE mage force is either 20 / 0 / 31 or 28 / 0 / 23 Arcane/Frost. Is it really worth speccing fire on your own?
EDIT: Falcon: That's my entire problem. Our aggro threshold is so insanely high that it might as well not even exist. I only attempted to pull aggro during broodlord once, to see if I could.
Kinda makes me wish I rolled horde. I think i'll try fire out though.
Err, I don't think the OP's normal playstyle is to try to pull aggro on every fight. Read his post more closely, please. His point was that after pushing it further and further and never having any aggro issues, he started to wonder if it was even possible. And he's right -- if you can't pull aggro on an untaunable mob with a 50% deaggro then that throws the whole idea of aggro control out the window, and a lot of skill with it.
I think mages are a little overpowered right now, yea. We're horde, so now blessing, but we still throw tranquil air down to be safe. A mage did well over 10% more damage then the next melee and didn't grab aggro. He had the lead by a large margin. It's gotten to the point that there are less fights that our top rogues can out damage the top mage then vice versa. I clear my damage meters before and after each boss, preferring to see what portions of the dungeon favor which classes.
Over a full BWL clear, the mage will have highest rank simply because of AEing certain parts. But, I don't think their damage from those parts is indicative of how much they are contributing overall. 5% more damage then someone else on nefarian is more important then 30% more damage then the next person on suppression, rather then 20%, for example.
Anyways, it's gotten to the point that there is only a handful of fights that our top mages aren't beating or tying our top rogues. Razuvious, the closest our guild is to a patchwerk style fight, which should favor rogues even more then mages still ends up being a close call. One or two mages are scattered in the top 5, and then there's a few rogues, and then the rest of the mages. This is even with them stepping out for a few moments to avoid the shouts too.
As a rogue, I seriously hope our dps is buffed enough with the new talent review to compensate against what mages can do now.
As for mages, I doubt you'll find much support if your attempting to nerf the -threat abilities you guys got. People would rather play an overpowered and boring class then a weak and challenging class.
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Didn't know the actual math behind it before. I'm pretty sure 3-piece Netherwind reduces 100 damage worth of threat from each spell (1000 frostbolt generating threat as if it hit for 900). I'm really tempted to respec fire since we're just starting to attempt some Naxx. I think i'll try it out. Hey, maybe i'll even pull aggro! The only thing that worries me is that our ENTIRE mage force is either 20 / 0 / 31 or 28 / 0 / 23 Arcane/Frost. Is it really worth speccing fire on your own?
EDIT: Falcon: That's my entire problem. Our aggro threshold is so insanely high that it might as well not even exist. I only attempted to pull aggro during broodlord once, to see if I could.
Kinda makes me wish I rolled horde. I think i'll try fire out though.
Don't take your frustrations out on the rest of your raid just because you aren't excited anymore - I think very few people in your guild will be sympathetic to your pity party for your "broken class" when you''re trying to explain their repair bills after wiping because you pulled an AoE mob into the raid.
And to think how much flaming I would've recieved if I even thought of posting this on the WoW Mage forums. Real responses is pretty refreshing.
Malan: Even if I had pulled aggro on Broodlord, it wouldn't have been a massive deal. I wouldve either just blocked or blinked to MT position and died. The kill would've gone just as smooth, and it just wouldve cost me a couple of gold.
Don't take your frustrations out on the rest of your raid just because you aren't excited anymore - I think very few people in your guild will be sympathetic to your pity party for your "broken class" when you''re trying to explain their repair bills after wiping because you pulled an AoE mob into the raid.
Uh, a frost mage pulling aggro on Broodlord is harmless. You ice block and let the tanks catch back up and/or you blink in and die. Let's talk mage aggro, not "omg you tried to pull aggro that's horrible." Thanks.
I tend to agree with the OP. It used to be, you could tell really good mages from mediocre mages (esp. horde side) because they had a great grasp of how to balance their efficiency/threat with AM/frostbolt to output maximum DPS without wrecking the raid. Now you could put a 6 yr old in front of the computer, show him the frostbolt key, and he even though he wouldn't be top DPS (especially if he died) but he'd could raid reasonably effectively as long as he could follow the bouncing red arrow. Alot of the thought was taken out with 1.12.
You posted the reason why Locks aren't that great for raiding (They have good utility though).
Without MD, they just generate too much aggro vs a Mage, and even then it is a little unfair.
Regarding the Fire Mage question, I don't think it is worth doing unless there are a few other Fire Mages to stack up Ignite.
At least 1.12 will increase your aggro somewhat, so then you have have to wand a bit.
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Speaking as a combat dagger rogue with very little PvP utility, yes, mages are broken :P
I love how much faster bosses go down, but damn it's disheartening to not only get owned in DM (our mages conspire with eachother to maximize ignites, and they all have "/w priest PI" macro'd for it), but to try and duel said mages after our raids and get repeatedly 2 shotted.
And to think how much flaming I would've recieved if I even thought of posting this on the WoW Mage forums. Real responses is pretty refreshing.
Malan: Even if I had pulled aggro on Broodlord, it wouldn't have been a massive deal. I wouldve either just blocked or blinked to MT position and died. The kill would've gone just as smooth, and it just wouldve cost me a couple of gold.
Sorry should have clarified that - I was more referring to the part about trying this out in Naxx that you made in your second post.
I agree with this to a certain extent. I'm Horde as well and since 1.11 I don't think I have pulled aggro once on any BWL/AQ40 mob with a frost spec. I don't remember the last time I had tranquil air totem either. With the damage being posted from the Sustained DPS for fire mages I can definately see how that would be more of a challange for horde mages with fire specs though. Honestly wants to make me spec fire, just wish I had the gear to make my scorch DPS respectable enough to do it.
Oh, sorry, yes, I didn't make that clear. This was simply a trial. In Naxx, on new encounters, or with anything that still gives us difficulty, I wouldn't dream of doing this. We've simply killed Broodlord hundreds of times, where i've watched my aggro, waited for 3-4 sunders and added in 5-10 second wand sessions. I really just wanted to test this, and even if I was wrong, the consequences would be small.
I'm currently the only fire mage of my guild, and while trying to convert them to the power of fire (kinda hard on horde side), I can beat any mage in any non-FR fight assuming i take the consumables to keep my mana up (by a nice margin too)... as for rogue vs mage, yeah, its a bit crazy, i managed to end up 3rd on razuvious last night behind 2 rogues (after removing my 153k dmg done by my blastwave on the adds of course :) ), i would of finished 4th if one of the rogue didnt get 1-shotted by still, yeah, rogues are a bit meh atm for pve, but with the +skill buff from 1.12 i think they'll regain their crown... unless the mages flask up, then... no chance still :P
PS : especially since you're alliance (BoW+JoW ftw), you should definitly try fire if your guild is up to naxx, way more interactive than frost aka 1-button-spamming-mage. Between balancing scorches and fireballs for mana consumption, improved scorch debuff and ignite rolling, it requires you to be much more awake... add in combustion in the mix and you're going to have fun :)
17/31/3 ftw ! (altho totaly pvp gimped, died to 2 scrubs while farming herbs that i could of easily killed with just ICS or PoM :( )
Just for the record - when 1.11 arrived, i've respecced fire and tried by best on Broodlord. I chain-casted fireballs for entire fight, stopping only to pop gems. I topped DM, and didnt get agro (and i've popped combustion). You can see my profile in signature.
So, yes, additive agro reduction is definatley overpowered (the fact that we had 5 tanks on him also helped). However even before that ive managed to get in top5 on DM on Broodloard, without ever pulling agro, because i know my limits.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
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I never pulled aggro on Broodlord before 1.11 anyways. I didn't start the fight immediately becaue there was always 10 or so whelps to clear up on the pull. But I could straight Frostbolt spam with 1.1K (curse of elements) non-crit Frostbolts the entire fight. I didn't trinket except for the last 20%. Alliance side so I had Blessing of Salvation. One of the factors on Broodlord is that at a certain gear level it becomes a DPS fight. If we can kill Broodlord before he hits his deaggro on however many tanks we have, then he'll never run out of position.
I also think a lot of people don't see, notice, or understand the aggro they gain from self-healing. Our MT wiped us on Anub once because he slipped in the slime and popped Life Giving Gem while the add was coming in. The Warlocks are pulling threat not from their damage but from using Lifetap, bandages, and a Healthstone. I have to be careful on Noth not to Evocate when he's about to blink or a new add is running in.
i wholeheartedly agree with the suggestion to respec fire. more damage, more spell choices, more attention to be spent thinking about mana, and more attention to be paid to your own survivability. not having ice barrier/block anymore coupled with hesitation to use manashield (cause i just cant spare the mana :P) keeps me on my toes alot more than i used to be.
Uhh, isn't Evocation like a self-Innervate, that just amplifies your natural regen, rather than "Power Gain" that generates aggro? Major Mana yes, but Evo really should not be able to pull aggro.
Is this the "Cookie-cutter" PvE Fire build? (Yes, i'm a massive noob to Fire specs, i've been frost since forever.) I figured i'd need 3/3 Imp scorch because i'd be the only fire mage. Would it be worth taking one point from Elemental Precision to max Meditation? (I'm rolling with about 6% +Spellhit right now). Anything I took that isn't really that useful?
07/20/06, 4:23 PM
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