It's Official... - Page 11

jubelio · 07/21/06, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Sunder

This notion of "I'm not experiencing the whole game" is bullshit too. Unless you roll every race/class combo, you aren't experiencing the entire game. So why care about another guild on another faction in another instance getting a different boss to kill than yours? If they really do design them to take each faction into account, there won't be a "harder" boss. Even if people perceive it. Which goes back to the problem that brought us here in the first place. Seeing a difference and crying because it's different. I expect Blizzard to have more design integrity than that. I am, sadly, very very wrong.

It seems like your idea of design integrity centers around ignoring customer comments/issues/complaints.

• frmorrison · 07/21/06, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by newladin

do you think blizzard will change WF totems now since horde can get bok and bom?

Alliance can get Windfury as well.

Possibly the 1.12 test notes saying WF totem would be nerf was just an nerf that will happen in the expansion, just some coder put it in early.

With BoM/BoK/BoS/SoE on melee dps, and on top of that the current Windfury, then WF totem may become unbalanced, and needs a nerf.

Sunder · 07/21/06, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

I think what it comes down to is that an awful lot of people arguing against this are arguing simply in favor of the status quo.

Stop and think for a moment: Do you seriously, really, want to be reading a thread 14 months from now titled "Illidan is ezmode for Alliance, gg Blizz"? Does anyone? It would never end. Yes, it's possible to keep tweaking and fixing and redesigning to keep a rough equilibrium, but is it worth it? Seriously?

You are going to read some version of that anyway. Trust me. This will only change what people whine about, it will not stop the whinning. It doesn't surprise me people complain about someone else getting something different in a competitive environment. What surprises me is that Blizzard isn't willing to tell those people that different doesn't mean unequal, and just fix those mechanics that actually do cause an imbalance.

I'm not argueing for a status quo. Obviously there is some real disadvantages to the Shaman buff mechanics and they need changing. I just think the way they have decided to go about it is about the worst solution short of doing nothing.

Drauk · 07/21/06, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

see Nefarian glide down onto his balcony

Damn, you made me realise that i've never seen that, because i always was busy killing off remaining drakonids.

• malthrin · 07/21/06, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Sunder

And I fully disagree. There will ALWAYS be whinners. Blizzard better learn this sooner rather than later. I don't give a good goddamn what Horde are doing in their own little instance. It means nothing to me. I would rather know that the bosses I am killing were tuned with the abilities my raid can bring to the table in mind. If that means having 2 different versions of a boss, so be it. It would be a better solution in my opinion than just making everything same-same.

How is that "better"? Your solution requires more work for Blizzard to create the same amount of experienceable content (Horde will never see the Alliance versions, and vice versa); it perpetuates a faction 'balance' that's already been demonstrated to be anything but; and it effectively doubles the area of potential bugs in new encounters. What if Alliance couldn't pass Vael's gate but Horde could? Blizzard's solution might seem uninspired or uncreative, but if people can put aside their offended game design aesthetics, I think they'll see that it's for the best in the long run.

Zagzil · 07/21/06, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Vykromond

Well, if it's not one thing, it'll be another- "l0l world 1st on 1ll1d@n was with 8 rogs, stak ur raid much? LLLLOL." Or better yet- "ILLIDAN IS 40 MAN, RAID OR QUIT, DISCUSS." The nice thing about "ezmode Alliance gg Blizz" is that it feeds into the game's internal lore while being outside of the game. That's an impressive coup on the gamemakers' part, regardless of the quality of the content being discussed.

But when it creates issues directly in the game, it's as much of a problem as it is a clever implementation of design on Blizzard's part. It's cool that Horde hates Paladins. It's not cool that the factions aren't balanced.

I'm more annoyed that we get a mangina race than Paladin, honestly.

Manson · 07/21/06, 2:24 PM

Whining may be perpetual, but if some of those whines are legitimate, not fixing them because someone else will whine about something different doesn't make any sense.

• frmorrison · 07/21/06, 2:24 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

Originally Posted by Sunder

You complain a lot.

ROFLMAO. Given the subject matter of this thread, that is pure gold right there.

Odds of this guy being alliance... 99.5%

The odds are 100%, if you can't find that out by his comments, click his profile.

Some people can't take the thought that in 6 months they will not have all the advantages anymore.

Quigon · 07/21/06, 2:24 PM

Originally Posted by jubelio

Originally Posted by Sunder

This notion of "I'm not experiencing the whole game" is bullshit too. Unless you roll every race/class combo, you aren't experiencing the entire game. So why care about another guild on another faction in another instance getting a different boss to kill than yours? If they really do design them to take each faction into account, there won't be a "harder" boss. Even if people perceive it. Which goes back to the problem that brought us here in the first place. Seeing a difference and crying because it's different. I expect Blizzard to have more design integrity than that. I am, sadly, very very wrong.

It seems like your idea of design integrity centers around ignoring customer comments/issues/complaints.

Most horde players have realized for a long time that designing balance into a seperate class instead of having equal sides is not going to weigh evenly - one side will innevitably get the shaft. Its simply been horde - which is why so many of the horde posters here are basically happy - and a large amount of the alliance players are upset that "things are changing". The QQ's have shifted from red to blue.

Quigon · 07/21/06, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Originally Posted by Quigon

Originally Posted by Sunder

ROFLMAO. Given the subject matter of this thread, that is pure gold right there.

Odds of this guy being alliance... 99.5%

The odds are 100%, if you can't find that out by his comments, click his profile.

Some people can't take the thought that in 6 months they will not have all the advantages anymore.

Thats pretty much it - most of the anger seems to stem from the current status quo being changed.

mnemus · 07/21/06, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

With BoM/BoK/BoS/SoE on melee dps, and on top of that the current Windfury, then WF totem may become unbalanced, and needs a nerf.

Drool, imagine the bosses that will require all that to bring down

Copernicus · 07/21/06, 2:28 PM

Right now, in PvE, a Paladin or Shaman's only role in a 40-man is to buff and heal. Blizzard can attempt to balance the raiding around the various buffs that they get and the effectiveness of their heals. Any unique application of their skills (Blessing of Protection, Judgements, Totems, Shocks) has to be underplayed or minimized to balance the two factions. Right now, it's arguable that Blizzard has designed encounters around the unique ways that Priests and Druids can heal, Maex being a good example. If either faction had an extra HoT, then Maex would be a much much easier fight.

Adding the oppisite class lets the two classes be more divergent in PvE and use their unique abilities. It's be interesting to have an encounter that requires a specific totem or a well-timed Blessing. It opens up the designer's space in terms of raid encounters and class design.

hamlet_the_lesser · 07/21/06, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by mnemus

Originally Posted by frmorrison

With BoM/BoK/BoS/SoE on melee dps, and on top of that the current Windfury, then WF totem may become unbalanced, and needs a nerf.

Drool, imagine the bosses that will require all that to bring down

It is definately going to be scary. I am going to try to log as much current information and compare it to what the changes are when we are all sitting at lvl 70. It is truly going to be insane.

♦ Praetorian · 07/21/06, 2:29 PM

Can we please stop the WoW-forums-quality "lol no more ezmode" and such posts?

----

Originally Posted by Vykromond

This isn't a fair argument, Gurg. When you think of the Warcraft trilogy over the past decade and then some, does C'thun figure prominently in any of that?

Hell, one might even argue that the Knight upgrade vs. the Ogre-Mages in WCII was the original precursor to Shamans vs. Paladins, and that was one of maybe three differences altogether between the factions in that game.

I'm not saying WoW hasn't taken the series in a new direction -- I was merely replying to the notion that cross-faction shamans and paladins was somehow raping the entire lore of the series. There are far more objectionable areas than draenei shamans in that regard.

No, I don't think anyone's arguing that. Wasn't it your argument that we have no idea what will change in the game post-expansion? That would render any 'status quo' argument moot.

Eh, I do think some of the opposition is knee-jerk reaction to change. Is that the impetus behind every objection? Of course not. But some.

The nice thing about "ezmode Alliance gg Blizz" is that it feeds into the game's internal lore while being outside of the game. That's an impressive coup on the gamemakers' part, regardless of the quality of the content being discussed.

That's not really a coup, or all that hard to pull off. When both sides bitch equally about the other, then you know you've got something. As I said above, Alliance vs. Horde in PvP is actually pretty damned good. Shaman vs. Paladin and racials vs. racials, both sides have good pros and cons, and both sides complain about the other side having unfair advantages. But seriously, when's the last time you saw Alliance raiders complain meaningfully about Horde PvE advantages. Viscidus? Before that, when? I could design a game and make the factions totally unbalanced and the weaker would resent the hell out of the stronger, but does that really make it a proper approach? I'd rather see animus come from world PvP and other interactions that place the two factions at odds with each other within the game world, rather than on some forums somewhere.

• Vykromond · 07/21/06, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Thats pretty much it - most of the anger seems to stem from the current status quo being changed.

No. Please stop ascribing motives to people to discredit their arguments. For example, the posts on the private forum of the guild I'm in have been overwhelmingly in opposition to this, and we're Horde- two players were even planning on cancelling their accounts when the Windfury change was still coming down the pipe. We must really love the status quo. Similarly, there's no reason why yr. average Alliance player would naturally dislike this change for PVE. Oh no! Horde guilds might get one or two more world firsts! Oh, wait, I'm not in <Death and Taxes> or <Risen>, so I wasn't really competing for those anyway. Back to work, then. Hey, anyone want to level with my Draenei Shaman alt? I'll give you Windfury!

Originally Posted by Zagzil

But when it creates issues directly in the game, it's as much of a problem as it is a clever implementation of design on Blizzard's part. It's cool that Horde hates Paladins. It's not cool that the factions aren't balanced.

You are absolutely correct. I don't disagree.

EDIT: Didn't /quote properly.