I dont mean to derail but I had a related question (patch hateful targets) in regards to when Patchwerk has 'locked onto' them. Generally, when can rogues open up attacks here? We have been waiting until each of the targets was struck atleast once to open. Last night I was starting dps a tad earlier than that (kinda curious what would happen) and it seemed fine. My assumption is once patchwerk reaches melee and begins establishing hatefulls , even if the third OT hasnt been hit, melee DPS can start up.

We have found that generally if the 4 warriors (MT +3 to get 'primed') have all landed a hit of some form on patchwerk its fine to go all out on dps. Rogues starting with backstab backstab tea etc.

Their setup is better. I'd expect those warriors to be running pretty impressive armor values most of the time. Do inspiration procs boost the effect of devotion?

I can.
look at earlier posts.

EDIT: lets end the bear tank discussion. It's been done to death in the first few pages of this thread.

Er, no you can't, since mitigation is capped at 75%. If a warrior can get to 73-75% mitigation via stoneshield, inspiration, devotion, etc., then he will strictly outperform a druid, period. A druid can hit 75% far more easily, though, and obviously can be a very viable HS offtank.

Or you could just moonfire him.

http://bbs.ngacn.com/read.php?tid=63...toread=&page=1

that brought a smile to my face :D

I was talking about the rest of the stats he put out as examples... <dead horse alert>

Mostly I advocate hunter tanks, because hunters dying in horrible ways makes me happy on the inside.

This is the thing I find interesting "inspiration".. As alliance, inspiration doesn't strike me as something you can rely upon being up permanately in this fight. As Horde maybe ancesteral fortitude would make the difference... and in the end faction or crit rate on priests might be the deciding factor on whether the bear or the warrior is the better option.

Going on Elog's figures above as a guideline:

I came up with the following possible stats for an alliance druid:

15489AC (73.8% tooltip, 72.91 vs 63) - no inspiration (19031 with inspiration, 76.78% vs 63, so above the 75% cap)

11179 HP (flask, motw, zanza, chops, fort, blood pact, kings) 8995 with no consumables

30.31% dodge (Scorpok Assay, Elixir of greater agility, kings, motw)


Quite comparable figures for avoidance, and not relying on inspiration for the mitigation.

Gear:
Back: Elementium Threaded Cloak (Dodge +1)
Chest: Vest of Swift Execution (All Stats +4)
Feet: Hive Tunneler's Boots (Agility +7)
Left Finger: Ring of Emperor Vek'lor
Right Finger: Signet of the Fallen Defender
Hands: Gloves of the Hidden Temple (Agility +15)
Head: Guise of the Devourer (Dodge +1)
Legs: Outrider's Leather Pants (Dodge +1)
Neck: Master Dragonslayer's Medallion
Shoulder: Highlander's Leather Shoulders
Left Trinket: Mark of Tyranny
Right Trinket: Smoking Heart of the Mountain
Waist: Thick Qirajihide Belt
Wrist: Qiraji Execution Bracers (Defense +3)
Mainhand: Warden Staff (Agility +25)


Can switch in a 2% dodge trinket for SHoTM if you prefer higher avoidance and lower mitigation, or GST/MBB for the chestpiece if you want to go the other way.

This is not to say the bear is a "clearly superior option" If the gear is right, it will depend on raid makeup and healer preference more than anything else whether a warrior or druid is best here.

Honestly however.. Once patch is on farm.. having a bit more leeway to use a druid without a flask (9979 HP without flask) I'd prefer to use a druid to save on ongoing expenditure.

Assuming 7 min fight, hit every 3.6 seconds,

X = 3038583.33~ Damage taken Raw, both classes.

(29990 + 22100 /2) / 3.6 * (60 * 7) = X

Warrior
70% Dr, 40% Avoidance

* .3 (70% DR) =911575 Damage after armor.
* .6 (40% avoidance) =546945 damage after avoidance and armor.


Druid
75% DR, 30% Dodge

*.25 (75% DR) =759646 damage after armor
*.7 (30% dodge)= 531752 damage after avoidance and armor.

Its pretty competitive, until :

Warrior 75% Dr, 40% avoidance :

*.25 (75% DR) =759646 damage after armor
*.6 = 455788 damage after both.


Perfect Druid: 531752 damage after avoidance and armor.
Perfect-ish War ( I know I'll be peppered with omg we can have higher avoidance) 455788 damage after both.

This is a difference of 75964 damage in the same time frame.

455788/531752 = ~14.3% Difference in damage taken between the two.

Significant? absolutely.
Encounter breaking? Unlikely. Its also extremely more simple to gear the bear to meet these stats.

Can we be done with the druid tank discussion now :/ The armor cap just depresses me.

Apologizes to gurg if you feel this is beating the horse beyond reason. Just trying to end this. I agree with you, and heres the numbers to back up your statement so people will stop.

edit: wrong bottom end hs damage

You didn't include defensive stance in your working out.

An endgame warrior in Wrath or equiv with talents and buffs pushes 70% mitigation. The hardest they're going to be hit is 8000. An endgame druid with the best gear available pushes 75% mitigation. The hardest they're going to be hit is 7500. As a healer, I'd actually prefer this as it's about surviving burst. (This is all minus inspiration).

The real question is, is armor capped at 75% damage reduction? For example, you could probably get to 350 fire res vs Ragnaros/Vael but it's said that you're not going to see any benefit over 315.

On a sidenote, I've yet to see a thread from a shadowpriest comparing DPS, mana regen / mana usage spamming mind flay vs a mage in mage armor spamming frostbolt to prove that they're "viable raid dps" with the right gear. But I've seen dozens of druid theorycraft tanking ones.

Yes, Pinocchio, if you wish it in your heart, some day YOU will be a REAL little "boy".

or shield block

X = 3038583.33 is the incoming damage

Dodge+parry (Character sheet info, as i suppose Zylas dodge was too) for my Warrior was 42% when i was tanking PW, while blocking for 159 damage.
I had 419 Def which means an added miss rate of (119/25)%=4.76% for a total miss rate of 4.4%+4.76%=9.16%

Bringing the naive on character sheet theorycraft *nonhit* HS rate to: 42%+9.16%=51%

So a warrior gets hit by 49% of HS swings for (assuming 70% DR , i.e WITHOUT inspiration buff) 0.3 * 0.9 (DEF Stance ... which Zyla keeps on ignoring) Damage, as in

X * 0.49 * 0.3 * 0.9 = 402004

If we want to include block values, we have to calculate the numbers of hits connecting on one warrior :
60*7/3.6*0.49= 57 HS Hits.

So the warrior would get 402004-57*159=392941 Damage.

I know that you you did not include miss rate on your druid calc.

But lets stop the nonsense that a druid would get equal damage do a warrior. Just parse a PW combatlog and see how many HS are getting dodged/parried/missed by a warrior or druid.

regards

When we first killed Patchwerk we had very little information to work with (2nd US kill). We tried for a few days using a Druid tank, but once you get a warrior buffed up there is no going back. We had little clue on the mechanics of the fight and ended up soulstoning/battle ressing our rogues. We only used 1 off tank and still do. The next week we tried to multi tank the Hateful Strike and struggled. Today we are still doing just 1 off tank, about 10 healers on the off tank and a standard 4 on the MT (probably can cut that down to 3).

My question to guilds that multi tank the Hateful Strike is why do you do it that way and have you tried single tanking it? When we multi tanked the Hateful Strike it seemed as if it did not always go 123123... but sometimes the hateful strike would come out of order. I'm trying to figure out if we can cut down the healing needed if we used more than 1 off tank.

edit: This is the fight where inspiration shines and having points in Holy Specialization really helps (well provided you are Alliance, otherwise spec Spell Warding). And while we are talking about mitigation, LOHing your OT before the pull combined with all the other consumables really makes a huge difference.

I have a question for EJ - what setup do you use for MT healers on Patchwerk ?

If anything you need more healing on the 3 OT strat because one of them has to be full or near full before the next HS. I think it is just less stressful while healing han seeing one hp bar make these wild jumps up and down.

Wow, weird. If it works it works though.

We use three offtanks, with the idea that OT1 will get HS'd, and while we're healing him, OT2 will get HS'd. By the time Patchwerk does his third HS, OT1 will be at full health. OT3 is just there in case this doesn't happen, but he doesn't get hit much at all.

I think the problem I see with having one OT is 1: Higher chance of too many people cancelling they think he's full, and he gets killed and 2: Higher chance of too many people overhealing.

But hey, if it works it works. I almost wish HS can't be avoided, and would then hit for less(but otherwise be the same dmg/sec), that way things would go much more 'normally'. Would make it a lot easier though.

I'm confident our tanks are ready to do this fight. We have like 3-4 full T2 and some with some Conqueror pieces with Bulwark or AQshield. 1 thing I'm wondering though, how fast will healers run OOM ? Seems like they need to spam flash heals to keep the OTs topped off. My understanding of healing isn't all that great though, so maybe I'm wrong.

Another question, to be considered "primed", must OT take 1 HS or just go in first before DPS ?

I keep renew up at all times and spam Heal 4 (no cancelling as we use 1 OT) for OT healing on patch, using nightfin soup / mageblood / brilliant oil / major manas each CD I dont run oom during this fight. I also carry a stack of Dark Runes to use incase I am very low with mana pots on CD. (we have our druids self innervate on patch as their regen is generally lower than our priests so they need it most)

For the tank 'priming' from my experience simply have the OT(s) hit patchwerk is enough, its only when other melee hit him before the OT we have had them HSd.

Thanks for the response. I'm really looking forward to this fight. It looks really fun. The last boss that hyped me this much was Vaelastrasz.

How much does your heal4 hit for? Do you have all healers on him use a heal that hits for the same amount or?

We use 3 OTs and I happen to heal with heal rank 2 and flash 7 as a judgement call. Winds up costing me 2 combat mana potions and 2 demonic runes, 1 charge of brilliant mana, 1 sagefish delight. The druids seem to be pretty good at keeping their mana up too as our innervates usually get tossed to mages.

My Heal4 hits for about 1750 self buffed and Heal2 hits for about 1550. Heal4 is almost double the mana cost, so you may want to consider switching. For this fight I use a mix of Heal2, Gheal 1,3,5, Flash 1,4,7. Yeah I probably shouldn't be using inneficient ranks of Gheal, but sometimes I find it neccesary to up my HPS so the tank does not die. If I can get away with it I'll spam Flash1 to proc inspiration and then resume Heal 2. If we are falling behind I'll adjust accordingly and either use Gheal or if it's really spiking I'll flash bomb rank 7.

As for if I'm on our single OT I'll usually do the samething, Flash1 or Heal2 spam and adjust ranks accordingly if the tank isn't being capped out. The previous posters are correct, with a single OT strategy you are rarely if ever cancelling your heals. Doing Patchwerk this way relies on the fact that pallies can Flash 6 for 1k indefinately, with Priests and Druids either Heal2 (or low ranks of Flash) or HT4 (I think that's what they use?) and occasionally throwing big heals. This may be a bit trickier for Horde, as to my knowledge the closest thing to Paladin flash 6 spam would be low ranks of Flash or Lesser Healing Wave which hardly compare in efficiency.