Cloudgatherer

Looking for some level-headed discussions regarding alts given a couple of cases.

Scenario #1
My guild typicallly runs MC, which up till last night has been awarding DKP (we are on twin emps, time-based DKP system, yes, yes I know different discussion) with a fair number of alts. Our default mode in MC is that we allow alts up thru Domo, and ask people to get back on their main characters so that Rag goes smooth (usually we are running only 25-35 people, helping getting those last sets of T2 pants).

However, something really set me off last night. Being short mages, I switched back to my mage at Domo to sheep, then we moved to Rag's room. Most people got on their mains, but what really set me off was that two people simply logged off and left the raid, one of them getting on (yet another) alt and joining a different MC run instead of helping to kill Rag. Must have been a terrible inconvenience for him to have to spend another 10 mins to kill Rag as opposed to jumping immediately to another MC run. Funny part is that the alt is guilded, it was rather boggling watching him move into MC, yet not in the guild raid. (Sarcasm) Happy to take people thru MC on an alt only to watch them switch to a different alt and join a different MC run when we ask for main characters for Rag (/sarcasm).

We just seem to have a problem with some individuals stacking epics on a character, switching to an alt, stacking epics, switching, etc. One person is on their 4th character in MC epics. Another has two characters in another raiding guild and brought the least geared to our MC run and seems to plan bringing alts when it doesn't conflict with the other raiding guild's schedule. In other words, there is a complete lack of objective criteria for who can bring alts, and who should not be (hence cases like being on a 3rd or 4th mc character decked with epics).

What would you suggest to address this "alt-itis"? I'm all for people playing alts (myself included), but what is going on currently seems far beyond reasonable to me (maybe I'm wrong). What kind of criteria/rules do you have regarding alts and do people chain alts faster than others (ie, some people playing one alt in MC, another playing 2-4 alts in MC)?

Scenario #2
We had a pretty dedicated group of people work on mastering aq20. Unfortunately, we did not have the right raid balance, as a result, several of us ended up playing alts while we were learning that instance. This ended up working out pretty well, as the instance is fairly challenging and rewarding for characters in blues/20 man epics. I even ended up tanking Ossirian on a warrior wearing mostly blues and the raid killed him.

During our learning of aq20, alot of our "mains" opted to not show up, and that's fine. The most outrageous case is coming to clear most of AQ20, but as soon as we got to Ossirian (who we had not killed yet), we had two people suddenly decide to leave the raid. Alot of people showed up, got their books, did not want to spend time on learning the Ossirian fight (which prolonged the time it took us to master that fight), but that didn't seem too bad to me as they stopped showing up.

The problem is that this instance is on /farm for us these days and people who did not put in much/any effort want to go (some on mains, some on alts). If there is space available, I work them in. However, when there is a conflict, I'm finding I'd rather take those people who put in the effort in the instance, and I care less about main characters versus alts (especially given there is very little "progression" gear from aq20 outside of the boe books). I'm tending to take even people applying to the guild as they are typically left out or given rather minor roles to play in 40 man raids and 20 man runs can be a good evaluation for them.

My general philosophy is that if they were not showing up when the going was tough, why should they be taken now that it is on ez-mode, especially over someone who was there when it wasn't easy? This kind of thinking seems to offend some people, who think that our "mains" should always have priority over alts/apps. As a general guideline I'd agree with that, but this seems like a pretty abusive case to me (letting others learn the instance, coming in after it is on /farm). Thoughts, opinions?

Thanks for reading.

 

◊ Quigon

Just... wow.

I'm not even going to comment on those quotes. It should be obvious what must be done.


As for the entire 2nd part... its an issue that plagues a lot of guilds where the members are not the type who just simply enjoy... "raiding" with their guildmates. Most guilds suffer from this - doing MC often would get higher attendance than BWL, and so on as you move up. Now adays this is inverted for us - but you need to find the type of people who will match your own playstyle. Basically you're looking for a guild full of people just like you - and trust me there are hundreds of them.
If you're an officer or leader you can do this...


The real problem keeps coming back - the players in your guild. They sound greedy from your description - they also sound overly lazy, even for a video game.

Your guild is only as good as its members. Most end game guilds, and very solid guilds are the result of the member's as a whole. The guild leader is hopefully initially intelligent about who he selects, who he kicks... and members invite their friends - who often times are as good as the original member who offered the reference. And essentially the maturity level and demands of the guild - plus the ethics, playtime, and skill essentially work itself out over a long enough time.

I'm not describing my point well enough just rereading. The point is simply that you need to find other people who have similar goals to your own, because being grouped with greedy or selfish individuals will ruin the game for you.

 

CrazyCarl

Yep, same thing with us.

Learning BW: Low attendance
Farming MC: High attendance

Farming BWL: High attendance
Learning AQ40/Naxxramus: Low attendance

Learning ZG/AQ20: Low attendance
Farming ZG/AQ20: High attendance

I know pretty much who helped learn content and who is just content to farm with us. It's kind of sickening considering the gold went into repairs and consumables not to mention the time spent. I only get annoyed when those people get loot/raid slots over those who took the time to learn the content.

 

Thieven

You need to talk to your core raiders, tell them that this is unacceptable that your are essentially gearing people who give other guilds their priority. I'm sure you could find people out there who are mature and would love to be in your guild, and would be thankful for the MC/BWL loot you could easily give them.

Man I would not put up with that shit at all.

Thieven - Hunter
Thestal - Priest

 

Jedah

Alts in MC is one thing, but people who egregiously abuse the guild (who won't even stay for Rag, and instead log on another alt to gear) have to be dealt with in some fashion. I was one of our guys who didn't show up for AQ20 though, because I was simply burned out and didn't have the will or time to learn a new instance doing afternoon raids on the weekends. Mains should always get priority over alts on gear that benefits the raid, but if there are people who are just flat out perpetually abusing the efforts of others, then you have to get them in line or get them gone before they soak up any more of your time and resources.

 

Taeme

The thing that terrifies me is the idea someone could go from one MC run and into another.

Dear God how much MC can this man take? He must be AFK 50% of the time or his mind would collapse.


And yeah, I agree with Jedah. Progression is important, but there are limits. And some people are not progression, they're a waste of time.

you're the one that decided to trust me

 

◊ Kurisu

What we do is enforce a rule that if you dont have a decent % of Learning IPS (how we track attendance) then you have a good chance of probation which can lead to guild removal. Granted we understand people have RL stuff come up but we look at that and understand those issues but also look for trends of that happening (ie taking RL breaks or having issues come up EVERY progression push). At the moment we let alts come to BWL and Illidan already has a VERY successful alt MC rotation done by some of our higher progression guilds (invite only). Then again some servers dont have a generally successful raiding base like Illidan : /.

SC Alts: Toremu - shaman

The other main
Kurisa- Druid

 

Schnappi

I personally dont like alts in raids. I am very willing to help gear up new recruits, or get tier 2 pants for some unlucky people. But once I see alts in the raid I instantly think "damn, another extra half an hour". If people claim to need my help in MC, they should start by getting alts play their mains.

That is just my view on alts.

Now on the OP's 2 main posts:
-Kick the alt-looter. Getting your alt geared and not even showing up for Rag is a lack of respect for your guild mates. Logging on another alt for free loot is adding insult to injury.
-You are right on giving learners priority on invites. Wether they be alts or mains.

 

Brick

Having been in similar situations myself, I'm curious: Are you in a position within the guild to take action (or directly influence it)?

If not, this might be a time to look at your guild bylaws/vision whatever -- if one exists -- and to take your concern to your guild officers. Common sense, I know, but is the guild's primary focus content progression? Some might say it is, but the execution differs. They might muddle their way around for a while and eventually get over a hurdle, and then sort of ride the accomplishment around scooping up lots of purples in the process before eventually moving on to the next challenge.

If this was considered unacceptable (and if you're not in a position of authority) it is likely that action would've already been taken, or some less-than-subtle hints would've been dropped by officers. Maybe it's not viewed as an issue? Maybe guidelines are so loose that officers feel that taken action against such behavior would result in a backlash since this behavior wasn't defined as actionable (Was that wrong? Should I not have done that)? Or maybe no one notices it but yourself?

If you're not in charge, bring your concern to your officers. If you are, bring these individuals aside and just ask for a heads-up and see how you can try to work things out. Folks generally are pretty reasonable if you talk to them -- it's if they are unreasonable is when the tough calls need to be made.

 

Cloudgatherer

Yeah, the general trend is for people to skip out on learning and show up for the loot. Universal problem it would seem, IMO. I'm not that picky about this kind of thing, get replacements and move on, it is when those who aren't putting in the effort return and expect a spot over those who did that annoys me.

I'm an officer/class leader/raid leader. I tend to be the most vocal about guild policy issues, however the overwhelming majority of the time the issues are discussed and not acted on. I have to _really work_ to make the argument to get things changed, which is why I'm asking for outside opinions. I certainly agree with many of the comments made thus far, it is how to raise these issues that is the touchy part.

 

sp00n

We are also allowing alts in Molten Core (at least we did, short time ago we abandoned MC due to simple lack of time).
What we do, since they earn DKP in that instance also with their alt, they are simply not allowed to go with any other group into an instance.
If they are cought doing so, well, goodbye, go join that other guild if you want to raid with them.
If the don't log to main for rag, well, goodbye for that raid, lets do it with 35 ppl.
Just don't let them abuse you or your system, it will only get worse.

As for 20 man instances, it is a good idea to prefer some newer people there. 1st they can learn how to raid and 2nd they can gear up there.

 

Xizorz

About alts: I like the EJ rule of 2 nexus crystals per epic. The guild loses nothing, and its a rather cheap price to pay. A player can bring as many alts as he wants, arguing over Player 1's 2nd alt, and Player 3's 5th alt, is hardly worth the trouble. Just random 100.

The players who are leaving right at rag like that? Consider the gkick. In general, I would only assign full dkp to people who stayed the full time. If you leave early, or come late, you should get minimal to no dkp.

AQ20? Extend invites to the people who showed up for the ossirian learning phase. It's a general problem with the instance; unlike ZG, which provides shoulder enchants, AQ20 has little incentive to rerun it after you get your 3 books. Give the people who sat out the learning phase a chance to rectify that; start up a queue like you presumably do for 40 mans. If they are interested they will wait in Silithus.

Solution? Turn it into a cash run, and sell any extra books made. Split the profits 20 way. Between a 90 minute Kurinaxx/Rajaxx/Moam/Ossirian clear, you get 8 books. As you keep running the instance, you can start selling them, make a good 20-30g per player in 90 minutes, along with the CC rep and a chance at nice Ossirian items.

Don't bank books and give them to people who never showed up to learn or clear the content. People leave because the Ossirian trash isn't the easiest thing in the world to learn, but once you get the hang of it, its a lot easier than even the 2 gladiator pulls.

http://ctprofiles.net/298322

 

sp00n

Well, I wouldn't consider this.
Since through these books, the raid itself profits if all the player have them.
Just for example, the new battle shout rank. Every rogue will love these 232 attack power. ;)

Just saw your edit:
It also gives you an impression of what awaits you in AQ40.
Just that 1 trashmob before the Twins could own all of the trashmobs before Ossirian.

 

Xizorz

It's not the most progression oriented solution, no. But I think the OP's issues with attendance outweigh that.

http://ctprofiles.net/298322

 

sp00n

Depends.
I would consider benefetting in 40 man instances more valuable than 20 mans.

 

Xizorz

If everybody thought like that, who would do new content and who would obtain any aq20 books? They're useful items; how many epics do you need to get the +damage bonus of the frostbolt book?

http://ctprofiles.net/298322

 

Tempestra

Around 100 +dmg = rank 11 frostbolt - rank 10 frostbolt.

I'm in the same guild as Cloud, and yeah alts have been driving us nuts (either from the fact that MC clears take over 3 hours, or some people in higher guild standing can even bring alts to progression nights O_o such as last night). I think at the core of this is that even though some people bring alts when needed and play by the rules, the people who *abuse* the policy are in a general "group of power" within the guild. Sure it might be beneficial to consider a gkick or severe rebuke in the long run, but a lot of talented players form this core of friends, including an officer or two, so the situation's dicey.

Anyhoo, I'm of the opinion that alts are good for non-progression nights, on the condition that they're not a super liability to the raid. Our loot rules make sure that they don't get loot over raiding mains, so that really isn't an issue - we're pretty set on nexus shards atm.

As for now showing up to learning nights, unless a main *really* needs something from AQ20 or ZG (yaright), they can sit in line like everyone else when it's on farm.

 

Cloudgatherer

I have no problems sending books to the guild bank. I want the guild to succeed, and alot of people in the guild have the folks who run AQ20 regularly to thank for the books. If people did not want to run aq20 for whatever reason, but want their books, I'm fine with that b/c our aq20 runs award DKP to those who attend as well as offer opportunities for people to play alts. Seems a pretty reasonable trade-off IMO. And yes, I've already suggested we sell excess books to pay for progression nights (flasks, consumables, etc), but I'm not aware of my advice being acted on and I don't control the guild bank (no idea how bank resources are being managed).

We have a group of people in the guild who keep their alts in another guild, which is really nothing more than an elitist alt-clique guild which does not raid by itself. I find it funny those alts get to participate in the regular guild runs and collect loot, yet do not have to be tagged in the guild. My general thought process here is "If you don't want to wear the guild tag, then why should you get the guild loot?" Am I being reasonable or just an ass? I'm not sure why those characters should get epics if they can't stand to be in the same gchat as the rest of us.

We have one member who has 2 characters in a different raid guild, but primarily raids with our guild on one character. I'd have no problems if the division stayed a division (character guilded with us raids with us, character guilded with the other guild raids with that guild), but very often I see this alt from a different guild in our more casual raids. This certainly seems like cherrypicking to me (raid where you can get the most loot), but this problem seems to be spreading as some are working on epics for their 3rd/4th characters (a significant number of them, not just 1 or 2).

There is definitely abuse going on, the members of the sub-guild I mentioned tend to get away with behavior mis-conduct and rule bending/breaking. It is usually of a minor variety, but as some of you have commented, it does seem to be getting worse.

 

Brick

It seems that you have idenfitied behavior that is not inline with your ideals. You've expressed your distaste for it over the course of several posts. However, you seem to be hesitant on taking action.

That's completely understandable -- no one likes to be the bad guy. You realize that despite your intentions that whatever action you're going to take won't be looked upon favorably by all, especially those you have greivances with. The reality is that you can't please everyone, so I don't think hesitating further in regards to taking some form of action is beneficial to you. You need to do something, otherwise it'll simply continue.

-----

You're an officer. Do you run the show? If not, who founded the group? What was their original intent? Are the actions of these individuals aligned with these stated goals? Again, find out why they have so many alts -- what are they trying to accomplish having X characters decked out in purples? Why are they hanging out with other guilds? What are their goals? Do they want to conquer new content right damn now or do they want to go after places like Naxx eventually and just do whatever in the process? I think if you can answer these questions for yourself that you'll be able to go about solving this problem in a more objective manner, and with less potential for regret.

 

hubar

This is what we do.

We have 10 DKP per hour for the practicing raid. And only 2.5 DKP per boss for the farming raid once the boss is farmable by us.

So if you don't come to the practice raid, you will soon be starved off your "DKP income".

And our raid invites always go to the members who show up for the practice raid first.

 

sp00n

As for the alts, we have founded a seperate guild for them (Fortune => Little Fortunes ;)).
If anyone wants to participate in our raidings as an alt, or wants to receive DKP while waiting outside and is on an alt during that time, he *has* to be a member of this alt guild.

 

◊ chalon

We may be in the minority, but we do not allow alts on DKP raids, unless the raid leader specifically asks for one to be taken along. The downside of this is we don't have very many alts who are capable of helping out in a progression zone, but the upside is we avoid the whole headache that bringing alts to DKP raids seems to entail.

However, AQ20 and ZG have never been DKP raids (so alts have always been allowed there), and we dropped MC/Onyxia from our raid schedule a while back, so people who still want to gear up alts have that option.

 

Nobwicket

The fact that you're discussing these issues with words like that here but not at your own guild forums, shows that your guild probably has a much bigger problem than alts and attendance in 20 man instances. You're probably better off getting that fixed. The alts- and attendance-thing will resolve itself when everyone's goals and expectations are aligned.

 

Chaotik

I find gearing up alts to be very useful , say for instance BWL we run every week and 90% of the tier2 armor gets DE'd. Why not have an extra alt geared up as long as the members are willing to spend points to gear them up.

I've had many times where say we've been short a warrior for AQ , it's nice to have members able to hop on a mc/bwl geared alt to get things done. I have a priest alt which I've been gearing up on the side and i've even used her on patchwerk to heal. Now if you have people playing alts and refusing to bring mains then thats a whole different issue.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org

 

Maledict

Why spend the points if its an alt of a main who is already geared, and the loot is going to be DE'ed otherwise? Just make them hand over 2 Nexus Crystals and you're sorted. Better that than penalising a main for equipment he might only use once a month...