Alts in Non-Progression Instances - Page 2

CrazyCarl · 07/25/06, 12:40 PM

I've enjoyed bringing my alts (Warrior and Hunter) to MC just to get a general feel for the role in a raid. I've also been asked to bring my leet Hunter to BWL when we're short on Tranq Shots, er, I mean Hunters. I'm just fearful that I may be asked to get him attuned for Naxx (We've had a bit of Hunter attendance problems lately, but that seems to have righted itself over the past week). Yeah, I'd like to get some gear for them (I really want to get a 2her for my Warrior, even if it is OEB), but I enjoy the learning experiance, especially as a Warrior.

Cloudgatherer · 07/25/06, 2:24 PM

Originally Posted by Nobwicket

The fact that you're discussing these issues with words like that here but not at your own guild forums, shows that your guild probably has a much bigger problem than alts and attendance in 20 man instances.

Actually, we have discussed "alt" issues, what should/shouldn't be DKP, what is reasonable, and so on among the guild. For example, I've asked several questions in my previous posts checking to see if I'm being reasonable, or maybe I'm just being an ass. Thing is, I've had these discussions and maybe I am being unreasonable, but I'd like to talk to and see what people in others guilds do and what their take on it is. I tend to argue my position pretty strongly, but it is usually just from my thoughts on what is a fair and balanced policy for the guild, so I wanted to check my own thoughts against those of others outside the guild.

Sure, I can put forth the argument that "Hey, I think alts should really be guillded to go on guild runs (whether they be DKP or just guild runs)", but it is another to say "I couldn't find a single example where other guilds allow unguilded or alts in another guild on their runs." I mean, does _anyone_ allow alts to be unguilded or in another guild and join guild runs? Unless the run is a Pickup-style run (/roll on everything, no priority), the guild organized events tend to be really controlled (typically item prioritization for progression). Another issue is how many alts people rotate into runs. I'm a little wary of people rotating alot of different alts in (having majority of gear as 40 man epics on 3+ characters), but maybe I'm just being anal about it.

The general principle of taking people who put in the effort to learn an instance is a common theme and I feel a bit better about having that position. I was fairly confident before, but no one has brought up a strong counterpoint or where exceptions should be made.

Tempestra · 07/25/06, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by Chaotik

Now if you have people playing alts and refusing to bring mains then thats a whole different issue.

I find that this is the problem we're having - "if I can't go with X alt, why should I bother to show up?" or "should I be in a guild that restricts my fun, and if i'm not allowed to bring my alt i'm not having fun?" - ie, hinting that they'd prefer not to show up or join another guild if they can't have their way. I've asked Cloud and some others to step on some throats, but that's another issue altogether.

Booting a nub to the guild would be easy, but how do you combat this when it's a person with a lot of influence and seniority? /shrug

Brick · 07/25/06, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by Tempestra

Booting a nub to the guild would be easy, but how do you combat this when it's a person with a lot of influence and seniority? /shrug

In an ideal world it shouldn't be any different. I agree that there's just different ways of conveying the same message for varying situations. Euphemisms/candy-coating/altering perspectives/etc.

However if you can't tell everyone to shape up or ship out, there'll be the inevitable "Why do I but he doesn't" questions, which really won't help anything, regardless of whether you're playing favorites or are reluctant to step on the toes of certain individuals. Truth is there will be folks that are unhappy with your decision -- you just need to figure out what's more important to you right now: the organization as a whole, or the opinions of a few select individuals.

Phantim · 07/25/06, 4:01 PM

My guild was having simular issues with alts in mc. The final conclusion was that if you bring your alt to mc, you have to bring your main to the next mc run. If your on an alt you better have your main parked near the gates as you will need to log on for Rag. Of course some people try to break these rules some times they get away with it and then other times they sit outside the zone in, on there alt for 3 hours. The reason that we have people switch between alts and mains from week to week is because every one wants to bring there alt but no one wants to go on a mc run with 40 alts, its mildly scary when your guilds main tank is your main healer, and your preist general is trying to tank with all blues and a green sheild.

Copernicus · 07/25/06, 4:30 PM

We used to let people bring in alts and pay with nexus crystals and the like. The problem there was that we had an extra hour on our runs from people swapping, lower DPS due to alts, and people not realizing that they were on their alt with the lower FR and stam etc. Luckily, our server has several alt guilds where people who want to gear up their random character in MC or BWL can easily get in on a /rand run.

Realisticly, when you are at the point where people are begining to look to bring in their alts as opposed to their mains for the isntance, it might be time to stop running it. The progression of MC -> BWL/AQ40 -> Naxx can easily take up all of a guild's available raid slots, especially if ZG or AQ20 is done on the side.

magnetic · 07/25/06, 4:35 PM

Interesting, this comes up here and now. I have been working on a solution for this.
I have always loathed the idea that useful gear would be DE'ed.

The fact that people in Tier2 look down on people in blues and greens in MC--that is what you were wearing in MC kids, or that guilds want to treat MC as if it were a serious endeavor in the first place, at this stage of the game, is absurd.

If not for gearing up alts or picking up the occational TOEP, and rag loot, there is nothing left for MC.
One thing that particuallydrives me bonkers are the unrealistic benchmarks that some guilds will set for chars to get into MC, either because its unnessesary or they don't understand the actual rather than perseived dangers of the zone.

gibs.nrgservers.net/policy.html outlines a very rudimentry, untested system for a raid group comprised of the alts of experienced raiders. Obviously it will need some practical work to normalize however it is designed to avoid grubbing and loot whoring and to ofset the cost of repairs and consumable to those who actually recieve loot.

One thing that I have experienced is that, I will run a raid 20 of some guild and a bunch of p-uPS, this guild will feel as if it is a guild run and they should have priority on items. Which to me seems absurd, if it was a guild run they would not have 20 random people playing, who all should have either a portion of all the drops (sales, de's, cores, etc..) or should have thier costs for being their covered, if they recieve loot or not.

Also who ever decided that if an alt gets a piece of loot that would be DE'ed would pay 2 nexxus was brilliant.
A brilliant cocksucker that is, since 7/10 times you get 1 crystal you are basical saying, Johney guildmate, you can have this peice of gear that may be useful to us in the future, and you only have to pay us more than it would have been worth in the first place had we de'ed it. That is one serious FUCK you to Johney if you ask me.

• Navaash · 07/25/06, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by magnetic

If not for gearing up alts or picking up the occational TOEP

Grats to Maniq last night for his ToEP, EJ shaman first!

diospadre · 07/25/06, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by magnetic

Also who ever decided that if an alt gets a piece of loot that would be DE'ed would pay 2 nexxus was brilliant.
A brilliant cocksucker that is, since 7/10 times you get 1 crystal you are basical saying, Johney guildmate, you can have this peice of gear that may be useful to us in the future, and you only have to pay us more than it would have been worth in the first place had we de'ed it. That is one serious FUCK you to Johney if you ask me.

An alt is almost always a burden on the raid since a main of any other class would be able to do the alt's job better. Having to pay .5 extra crystals in general is a fair trade. Since the general sentiment is "fuck your stupid alt" it works out well.

Beliandra · 07/25/06, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by magnetic

Also who ever decided that if an alt gets a piece of loot that would be DE'ed would pay 2 nexxus was brilliant.
A brilliant cocksucker that is, since 7/10 times you get 1 crystal you are basical saying, Johney guildmate, you can have this peice of gear that may be useful to us in the future, and you only have to pay us more than it would have been worth in the first place had we de'ed it. That is one serious FUCK you to Johney if you ask me.

Interesting, this is the exact system we use, and all of my guildies who suffer from chronic alt-itis LOVE it, I have never heard anyone suggest that they feel 2 nexus is too expensive to grab an epic. The attitude is universally: "omg! I can spend a few gold buying crystals instead of spending my main's DKP?! GIMME EPIX!!"

Cloudgatherer · 07/25/06, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Brick

However if you can't tell everyone to shape up or ship out, there'll be the inevitable "Why do I but he doesn't" questions, which really won't help anything, regardless of whether you're playing favorites or are reluctant to step on the toes of certain individuals. Truth is there will be folks that are unhappy with your decision -- you just need to figure out what's more important to you right now: the organization as a whole, or the opinions of a few select individuals.

This is basically the drum I beat quite often. I push hard on having some policies, and when I see people bend/break them, I push on the issue. My arguments usually come across as targetting specific people, which obviously they do if they are doing something pretty shady that should be stopped. I'm pretty hard on people who appear to be simply taking advantage of situations (ie, bringing in a poorly geared alt for easy MC epics). I'm a 20 man raid leader for my guild, so I don't handle MC/BWL/AQ40/Naxx, and I have no problems enforcing such rules during the runs I've organized.

I'm not particularly sensitive with how "happy" people are with decisions/policies. If it solves a guild problem, helps the guild progress, sets ground rules for everyone, then polices along those lines are (generally) good ones. Not making a policy or having a change b/c it will piss someone off has never stopped me from suggesting it before.

Originally Posted by diospadre

Since the general sentiment is "fuck your stupid alt" it works out well.

Which is why some guilds don't deal with the situation at all (no alts, period) or have very structured means of handling them. I think there is a large guild benefit to intelligently rewarding raiders who have been around a long time with a high attendance with gearing up an alt. Not only can it be a nice reward, but allows the guild to be flexible in case a backup character is needed on progression nights (as Chaotik cited). The "If he does it why can't I?" question is easily answered by "he's been in the guild longer with a higher attendance, you should get to over him?" I'm a pretty big fan of objective criteria for such things.