So we've more or less got the healing on Patchwerk under control, one of the first nights with 40 people and actual try with flasks, pots et cetera.

After 4 minutes, he was at 50%
At 2.5 minutes til enrage, he was at 39%

We're not doing enough DPS (about 8k), and I'm not sure why;

Our members are generally very well geared, especially our DPS (its mostly a few healers who can use big upgrades).

One or two of our rogues hit 550-600, our mages however are *always* on top (And they aren't fire right now; They were all frost today), and hunters were generally pretty low alongside warlocks. This is with flasks, pots, thistle teas, et cetera.

The rogues were in groups with warrior and shaman for totems, and the 4 hunters we brought had totems as well but no TSA.

Casters didn't have shamans. Our fury warrior (semi-decent gear) was hitting around 4th place if I recall, just below the mages if I recall right.

I'm pretty sure we're not maximizing DPS, but I'm not sure what more we can do - I know people here love to crunch numbers, so here I am. I didn't want to revive the very big thread that Gurth posted a while ago, I hope thats alright--

Are there any obvious tricks etc ? We're using Sunder f.ex, should we be speccing for Imp. Expose on one rogue ? I get the feeling having to keep it up will lose us more DPS. One of our very well-geared rogues was hitting for 900 with ss, and that seems very very low (He hits 1200 ss'es on Noth). We had FFire up some of the time, but not all of the time.

[edited to correct certain wrong data.]

I think your rogues should be doing more. I have noobie BWL gear, a servo arm, and kots and I pull 500-550 dps with zero consumables. It may be their spec, one of our rogues has incredible gear (everything out of AQ40 possible basically) but is currently seal fate so he doesn't do that well. He's waiting for 1.12 to respec.

Are you sure on those numbers...?

2.5min until enrage is 4:30 out of 7:00 elapsed. 39% means you're on pace for a kill in (just barely) under 7 minutes when you factor in an increase in DPS sub-20%.

If your MT healing is solid, use CoR. And keep FF up 100% of the time. That's about it, really. If you aren't fully BWL/AQ-geared then a 7-minute kill is just fine.

About rogues doing more:

Not sure, but I do know that every single rogue isn't doing 500-550, they were doing less. And that sort of worries me :(

Our DM was:

Mage
Mage
Mage
Mage
Fury war
Mage
Mage
Rogue
Rogue
Mage
Hunters/Locks/rest of rogues

Using CoR might be shaky - Some of our healers were OOM at 39% (myself included, my gear is probably the worst of all of our healers; +430 healing or so, low mp5, etc).

It just seems like we're stretching it - SWStats reported 8.1k as peak DPS (8k as median, roughly), and that seems about 500-600 less than it should be at least.

Give me some of your rogue's specs.

Rogue specs:

1 dagger, 2 sword spec

15/26/10
20/31

specs

Its not like we're far off track from a kill - It merely worries me that rogues are where they are.

What? All of your hunters are 21/30? While hunter damage isn't very impressive on Patchwerk, your raid would be better served if they dropped their pvp talents and went 5/31/15.

Well, isn't TSA better served if you just have one in the group with it? We have two hunters with TSA, but neither hunter was there today.

Ranged Weapon Spec is the reason to go deep into the MM tree. TSA is just icing.

But yeah, your hunters aren't the problem if there is one -- the rogues are a more likely candidate.

What's their gear like?

I am surprised your Rogues are so low. Do they have totems? Are they using pots?

A Rogue should be getting 550dps at a minimum.

i got BWL/AQ/Naxx gear:

http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?1664913

Hmm; This contradicts the information I have about rogue DPS specs and what works best in PvE - Interesting.

What you're saying, is that DPS dagger build wins out, over DPS swords ?

Nope, just spec for whatever your best MH weapon is unless you have ACLGs, pretty much. Combat daggers will edge out combat swords with equal gear, but +weapon skill availability puts daggers over the top.

If you've got CTS or AQR with Maladath offhand definitely stick with that unless you have ACLGs.

Combat swords get double AR in this fight, which is a nice boost to our dps. But the question we want answered from this thread is how come our rogues are where they are, after hearing/seeing totally different results.

I usually have no problem keeping high dps, but this fight is severely hurting my dps, due to his annoying armor. I'm wondering if the Badge trinket ( http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=21670 ) is to use over the +81 AP trinket. Anyone wanna do the maths? :D

No, 5/31/15 is better DPS than 21/30, and it is STILL better DPS thaan 21/30 leaching TSA from a 5/31/15 hunter.

I'd love to see some math to support some of this, or some stated reasons for those of us not inclined in the ways of the hunter; If its at all possible =) "It says so on the EJ forums" doesn't quite go a long way :P

Yeah, I searched and felt like a noob afterwards. Thanks =)

whats worth mentioning is that all mages had flasks and most buffs available.

Do you really only have three rogues on the fight? I could see that being a problem :)

Considering the DPS from our mages far outshadowed that of our rogues (for the most part), not really :P

Afaik our mages didn't have any significant mana problems.

yes we only had 3 rogues, but our overall dps was good, and we would have made the kill within the timeframe with that dps.

If one were looking for a pre-Naxx test mob to evaluate your raids DPS, how do you guys feel Ebonroc stacks up? We have been looking at Ebonroc as a good scenario to say, ok guys, max your buffs, balls out and let's see where we end up. No special gear, no need to stop DPS, and if you are really OCD you can extend to fight to however long you need (6 min-7min) if you don't taunt off the MT.

From a pure DPS perspective, are there any significant differences that might make our comparison invalid? Our intial completely unbuffed run had rogue/DPS warriors ranging from 620-450 DPS, so we probably need some improvement. But what can be measured can be improved right?