I am working on a horde druid alt, and I have some questions about druid specs. Druids are a versatile class, and it's hard for me to work out the math on the effect various talents have on their performance. So, being lazy, I thought I would ask here and see if anybody did the work for me! On to the questions:
(1) Is it the case that Moonfury and Gift of Nature now scale with gear?
(2) Clearly, natural weapons + OOC gives a little over 10% dps to feral forms. The question, how much dps does one gain going from 0 feral to 30 and/or 31 feral?
(3) Moonglow is a strong reason to go resto/balance -- the question is, is it worth going 30 balance to try to be a backup nuker, or is that a lost cause, and one should just consider 24 balance points to just lead up to Moonglow, and otherwise wasted?
(4) Finally, how useful is Subtlety and Nature's Focus? I heard that the first is not useful while the second is. Unfortunately a 21 point resto spec would have a hard time fitting either of those in.
edit: (5) Say I want to go with 30 feral/21 resto. The way the talents work out, you have to give up one of the following: improved shred, savage fury, blood frenzy, primal fury. Which would you give up? I am sort of loathe to give up the first two, because imp. shred is a lot of dps, and savage fury has wide applications. Presumably this leaves blood frenzy or primal fury. My current thinking is primal fury is the least useful because bears get a lot of threat from taking damage but there's not much one can do to get more combo points as a cat.
1) Not as far as I know; I'm sure GoN doesn't, unclear on Moonfury but I'm guessing no.
2) Quite a bit, considering the statistical boost (along with the nice talents for cat/bear relating to crits and such). The better gear you have, the more DPS you'll be gaining, obviously. From my experience its not worth going 31, though - NS is far more useful than the 31 point feral talent.
3) Not really IMO - Either you go 22, 23 or 24 balance (I'd go 24 because I tend to love Nature's Grace, permitting I'm that spec at the time) and accordingly the rest in resto. Unless PvP - I'm unaware of how balance druids do in PvP
4) Subtlety is /shrug - I can still draw aggro from NS+bigheal+regrowth or similar, and I don't draw aggro even without it, when I don't want to. Thats even as horde, and I never have tranquil air. Nature's Focus, meh - I can't imagine any situation where I'd really want it to be honest. I see it as more of a PvP talent.
It depends on where you are in the game, and what your focus is, I suppose.
I was hoping someone worked out the expected % improvement in dps going from 0 to 30 feral. I have heard it is about 15%, but I haven't done the math myself. Nature's grace is awesome, imo, if you are up in the 20 point range of balance anyways.
1) No. Neither does imp. moonfire, while we're at it.
2) The best levelling (ie, pve dps) build is 0-->23 feral, followed by 11 in balance before you round out the rest of the feral tree.
3) If you raid, anything over 24 points is a waste. If you pvp you go feral. If you do 5-10 mans then it really doesn't matter. There is a whole host of issues regarding the trainwreck that is the balance tree, most of which have already been outlined in previous threads. Basically, it might be workable but will never, ever be optimal.
4) Subtlety is fairly redundant in raids assuming you know how to pace yourself. No comment otherwise, as I think the last time I ran Scholo without BoSalv was in early 2005. Nature's Focus is a playstyle decision and functions exactly how it sounds.
Originally Posted by silya
I was hoping someone worked out the expected % improvement in dps going from 0 to 30 feral. I have heard it is about 15%, but I haven't done the math myself. Nature's grace is awesome, imo, if you are up in the 20 point range of balance anyways.
Roughly 20% by my estimate. HotW is pretty cruddy that early in all greens but savage fury alone is 7% or so given that if memory serves claw spam was something like 30% of my dps at that point. As always, feral is mostly a gear decision.
Stack on your chosen set of gear and run the cat statistics for a talent spec of 24/0/27 (the "efficiency" healing spec) and 0/30/21. See how the DPS numbers compare. Between reduced energy, crit chance, the cat version of Seal Fate, extra AP, and Heart of the Wild, I'm guessing the DPS increase is significant.
I'm too lazy to run it atm because I just ate a large hamburger and need to take a nap...
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Not worth a new thread, but while we're on the subject of all things druidic: I was guilt tripped into a Scholo run by a friend recently and was at one point doing lolkitty dps on an even-con splitered skeleton. After parsing the log afterwards on a whim, I noticed two entries for glanding blows. I've been restoration since forever so I'm not well versed in this, but I always assumed it was common knowledge that a mob had to be two levels above you for glancing blows to apply given maxed weapon skill.
Anyone know if this means that feral forms don't use 300 weapon skill by default or if they simply use different combat mechanics altogether?
The mob probably has a bonus to it's defense skill, the level difference doesn't matter, just the defense value. When player characters (warriors) get mind controlled by the piles in ZG I've seen attacks by rogues glance for like 7 damage because they just had so much defense, probably 50-60+ or so I'd imagine even though the player was level 60.
Anyone know if this means that feral forms don't use 300 weapon skill by default or if they simply use different combat mechanics altogether?
You are considered to always have weapon skill = 5*CharLevel while in Cat or Bear/Dire Bear forms. The tooltips on your charsheet are in error, and will display the skill you have with your currently equipped weapon, but this is in error. If you are in travel or seal form, you are considered to be using your melee weapon and will have that skill/attack speed/damage, etc. There is nothing that can raise your "weapon" skill in forms AFAIK, meaning glancing blows are the name of the game while doing DPS in end-game raiding. :( (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.)
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Not worth a new thread, but while we're on the subject of all things druidic: I was guilt tripped into a Scholo run by a friend recently and was at one point doing lolkitty dps on an even-con splitered skeleton. After parsing the log afterwards on a whim, I noticed two entries for glanding blows. I've been restoration since forever so I'm not well versed in this, but I always assumed it was common knowledge that a mob had to be two levels above you for glancing blows to apply given maxed weapon skill.
Anyone know if this means that feral forms don't use 300 weapon skill by default or if they simply use different combat mechanics altogether?
That common knowledge is completely untrue - typically they need to be +1, but some even-con mobs generate glances.
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I was just about to say - mobs do not have to be 2+ levels higher to get glancing blows. It's insanely easy to test - go take a level 14 warrior to Westfall, and you'll get glancing blows on every level 15 mob in the zone.
I think Savos answered this question already -- it's a comparison of your weapon skill and the mobs defense value. Basically if MobDefense - WeaponSkill >= 10, then you have a chance to get a glancing blow. Since MobDefense is *often*, but not *always* set to 5*MobLevel, this myth of 2+ levels arises. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of warrior or paladin mobs (esp. those with a def. stance) have higher defense than 5*MobLevel.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
(3) Moonglow is a strong reason to go resto/balance -- the question is, is it worth going 30 balance to try to be a backup nuker, or is that a lost cause, and one should just consider 24 balance points to just lead up to Moonglow, and otherwise wasted?
Quick reply while insomnia permits.
I'm currently specced 24/0/27. My ability to nuke with wrath (which recieves the largest bonus from +damage gear per point) is pretty equivalent to a 33 balance druid. I lose some crit from moonkin, and I lose a static amount of damage (too lazy to thott it, and unwilling to trust my sleepy brain for the exact number).
I would not consider it worthwhile to spend the other 6 points in balance at the cost of resto talents IF you have access to high end +dmg gear. If you dont? Then it might be worthwhile.
Moonfury becomes less of a factor the better your gear becomes, eventually scaling down to a non-issue. Contrariwise, the moonkin aura becomes better as your base dps increases. You can judge for yourself when you'd want it. Personally I prefer NS and not hearing "A more powerful spell is active" when I try to rejuv.
None of this means I will ever be a "mage" druid, itemization alone is staggeringly bad, but if I have to try and do damage with my current spec in a raid situation, it's wrath spam, not kitty-ho!
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You are considered to always have weapon skill = 5*CharLevel while in Cat or Bear/Dire Bear forms. The tooltips on your charsheet are in error, and will display the skill you have with your currently equipped weapon, but this is in error. If you are in travel or seal form, you are considered to be using your melee weapon and will have that skill/attack speed/damage, etc. There is nothing that can raise your "weapon" skill in forms AFAIK, meaning glancing blows are the name of the game while doing DPS in end-game raiding. :( (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.)
This part I was aware of, apparently I'm just ill-informed of how glancing blows function. Comes of not lurking enough in the rogue raid channel and just browsing wowwiki, I suppose. Thanks for the replies.
Though I must say, hijacking an otherwise wholesome druid thread with feral questions breaks new ground. I should get a cookie.
I played around with the druid calculator that was linked earlier in this thread, and it turns out the two biggest bang-for-buck feral dps talents are: natural weapons and improved shred (!).
What this means, in particular, is that if one wants to optimize cat dps while still having 21 resto, the following build is probably optimal:
Do you think this is accurate? Personally I was somewhat surprised, as it seemed to me GotW would be a superior choice over natural weapons for cat dps, seeing as it is a tier 6 talent, while natural weapons is tier 2. I guess the reality of the situation is that GotW is meant to be a 'generalist's choice,' while not specifically better in any one area than specialized talents in other trees.
Shred/Improved Shred is great for doing DPS in a group situation. Solo few mobs are going to constantly present their back to you.
This was for raid dps in case there was too much healing, but not enough dps (yes it does happen!). I harbor no illusions about shred in pvp -- it's about as useful as backstab there.
I'd never want to go without Feral Faerie Fire either
Feral faerie fire is extremely useful for bears as an aggro source -- but next to useless to cats because some caster druid will always put it on a raid target anyways.
I'm very surprised that Savage Fury, Predatory Swipes, and Heart of the wild combined did not do better than Natural Weapons.
Heart of the Wild just provides so much versatility to a druid who knows how to use all of their forms effectively. Sure it might not be tops in the dps department, but adding the health while in bear and the int while in caster is nothing to sneeze at.
Savage fury makes no difference to cat raid dps because cats just spam shred and finish with rip. Predatory strikes is a flat AP boost which does not scale -- and 10% dps is better than 20% strength due to the way strength is convered into damage. So the result sort of makes sense in retrospect. I agree with you about the flexibility of GotW.
I am really having a hard time choosing a spec, I guess blizzard did a decent job on druids (for once). I have even considered specs with something like 13 resto (for reflection) which gives a surprising amount of healing functionality for so few points.
Actually I have another question to add to my list in the original post: say I want to go with 30 feral/21 resto. The way the talents work out, you have to give up one of the following: improved shred, savage fury, blood frenzy, primal fury. Which would you give up? I am sort of loathe to give up the first two, because imp. shred is a lot of dps, and savage fury has wide applications. Presumably this leaves blood frenzy or primal fury. My current thinking is primal fury is the least useful because bears get a lot of rage from taking damage but there's not much one can do to get more combo points as a cat.
My current thinking is primal fury is the least useful because bears get a lot of threat from taking damage but there's not much one can do to get more combo points as a cat.
I agree.
Sounds like 0/30/21 will work out best for you.
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I hate having to choose between primal fury and blood frenzy. Generally if I do choose between them I go for primal fury since tanking is just generally more important than cat DPS for what I do, and it's just so damn good for bear form. When combined with idol of brutality, you just get so much rage and can actually gain rage if you manage a lucky triple swipe crit, while a crit maul only costs you 2 rage.
I hate having to choose between primal fury and blood frenzy. Generally if I do choose between them I go for primal fury since tanking is just generally more important than cat DPS for what I do, and it's just so damn good for bear form. When combined with idol of brutality, you just get so much rage and can actually gain rage if you manage a lucky triple swipe crit, while a crit maul only costs you 2 rage.
So you don't make the choice because you take more points into feral or because you give up imp. shred or savage fury?
If you play around with the calc, Blood frenzy makes minimal difference to overall raid DPS (but is great for solo/pvp) So if PVE raiding is your priority, and there's any chance you might need to OT.. go with Imp shred+Primal Fury. If you want to tank stuff like 5-10 mans, nef phase 1, broodlord (when you don't have agro) or similar, Primal fury is godly.
That being said.. without imp shred, if you have the idol of ferocity, claw spam (shredding on clear casts if you have OoC)->rip can be quite effective..
I am not sure why going over 24 balance is a waste. I am running with this 27 balance, 24 resto build right now and it is fine. The real limit I think to the template is where to put your points beyond 24 balance, 21 resto. I am not sure the returns off of gift of nature are that hot, since from what I have read this takes place before itemization. Getting maybe 2 points into improved regrowth to trigger a crit and natures grace for a faster HT might be an interesting strategy, but the efficiency of regrowth is pretty bad. However if you are in a situation where you must get healing out there now and regrowth is what you are casting, then the boost to your next HT casting time would help alot. Improved rejuv seems to be a solid investment. I am not that sure how important natures focus is in a raiding environment. Subtlety is a big question too. My reasoning was to get the most healing efficiency and still have fun when I am not raiding. So that means getting insect swarm for fun. I also saw a bind in balance...if you fully talent wrath and get max vengeance to make those wrath crits hurt, then add in grace and moonglow you have just 5 points left over to spend in balance. If you are going to wrath you want reach. So that means you choose between natures grasp, improved thorns, or natural shapeshifter for the remaining 3. I wanted to have a nice thorns buff for the tanks and be able to cheaply shift, so I went 27 balance. My take though is you have a good deal of flexibility here, going (30-24) balance and (21-27) resto for essentially the same performance.
So you don't make the choice because you take more points into feral or because you give up imp. shred or savage fury?
More into feral. Occasionally I've spec silly amounts of feral (34 points) just to see what I can do with it.
I was specced 11/34/6 for a long long time, I recently respecced into healbotalot mode and lost all desire to play my druid outside a raid :(
Trying to find a balance is quite hard as Swiftmend really nice, way more tempting to me than innervate ever was.
I copied onto the test server to test GoN again as someone said it worked post +healing items, but they were wrong and it still sucks :(
Given that the majority of the heals I cast on raids are HT3 and HT4 it adds so little it just isn't worth the six talent point investment, the 22 per tic it adds to rejuv is nice but its still six points you could spend elsewhere.
I am aware that I will have to change the way I heal soon as we only just finished BWL but since speccing healbotalot I have topped the healing meter with normally one of the lowest overhealing amounts, more importantly than the healing meter is my assigned targets not dieing.
07/25/06, 8:46 PM
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