I'm sure alot of rogues have been thinking about how this is a more viable choice for 1 rogue per guild but really need a bored mathmatician to find out which is the best dps build. I have come up with a couple of variations.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=y0bZ0xAb0VzLbZxrRRbhoo

2/27/22, 2/5 malice and 4/5 sword spec because i think crit > extra attack. You can change around the fillers in sub if you like, none are overly pve based. Alternative to this spec is something like 0/29/22 with riposte.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jhecoxzZZxrsshhoq

21/0/30, more obvious build taking all the classic assassination talents and extra points in sub for deadliness, again lots of fillers to mess around with in sub.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=nZ0xAb0VzZxrsshhoq

0/21/30, BF / deadliness, not really sure if i like this build or not. You are trading WeX 4/5 sword spec and 2 crit for deadliness really. Seems bad compared to the other 2 imo.

I think myself I am more of a fan of the tradition ass / sub build, but I do wonder if you gain more out of combat even with losing some very important talents. Anyone bored enough to work it out :)

Hemo PvE spec is an oxymoron. The only reason you spec Hemo is to win duels. It can't compete with any of the other builds. It's like trying to make an uber combat daggers PvP spec; it simply doesn't exist.

Considering the hemo bonus damage is subject to crits and other damage modifiers is it really that bad?

I wasn't asking for an oppinion on the overall uses of hemo.

I very much understand it's draw backs, but if one were to use hemo, it would be nice to get the most out of it.

I think the question to be asked about Hemo in raids is "Is the loss in DPS from the Hemo rogue outweighed by the rest of the Raid's DPS increase as well as taking up another debuff slot?"

The answer you'll probably get is "No".

That said, I'd love to see people go against the grain and Hemo in raids.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=n0ecRxZ0xVZxrfobhoo

You need those key talents in Assassination in order to be effective in raiding.

That build that I just put together seems to be the most "raid effective" hemo spec I can think of... but it loses so many of the classic skills that make hemo what it is that it seems completely worthless to even bother taking the spec in the first place.

Maybe 2 more points in Assassination to get CB, with 2 out of precision would be better for dps. Not sure, but I'm fairly certain no one would bother taking this build in the first place; it is merely conjecture.

Well all the talents are just fillers, most are pretty useless.

I think if you are going the 21/x/xx route, then 21/0/30 is best.

5dodge and 3hit for 10% attack power (150 or so). 150ap is defititly worth it for hemo, helps the scaling finishers too.

Camouflage is also quite worthless in a PvE situation. Sleight of Hand still benefits a raid situation more than a pure PvP talent does. Though if you're going heavy subtlety, chances are you won't need the feint bonus, because it'd be very difficult for you to pull aggro. /paradox

Actually, 21 0 30 Hemo will be rather viable with a good weapon, especially if you are alliance, I will have 1952AP raidbuffed without crusader procced and a servo arm, you can do atleast 1000+ probably 1100+ Hemo crits, SS doesn't crit that much higher, Higher AP with 2.8 speed weapons, prefferably 2.9 is ludacris in comparison, Hemo damage/energy is higher, also Rupture/Evis scales, so your damage will be special attacks damage, not actual white damage, considering that 1ap = 0.25 Eviscerate damage, blizzard had announced a 600/800/1500AP table of eviscerate damage, around 1900-2000 AP which is obtainable as alliance atleast, you are talking Eviscerates up at 1300-1400 Hits, also, 225ish Rupture ticks, 220 * 8 is not that bad damage.

I am a believer that 1.12 Subtletly will be very good for pve, compared to how it is currently and a very viable alternative, probably won't match Combat Daggers, but will be still good damage for Hemo rogues, not to forget that 1 Hemo actually does add DPS aswell, as you guys already mentioned.

The argument's been debated countless times, but once again, the loss of the entire combat tree far outweighs the usefulness of a heavy subtlety PvE spec. Even with Hemorrhages outdoing Sinisters, that doesn't count for the other 31 some odd points that you've diverted from the prime PvE tree elsewhere.

I agree. 150 AP may not be much, but it is better than 3% to hit. Although if you want to PvP, imp Gouge is nice to have.

That said, with the number of debuff slots, I don't think a serious guild would want a Hemo Rogue taking a debuff slot.

I sort of wonder about the use/validity of an 11/18/22 or 13/16/22 hemo/exposebitch setup, but not enough to check if it would be worthwhile.

lethality really isn't necessary for raiding except for w/ dagger spec, otherwise you get an extremely low effectiveness out of it, perhaps a more effectvie way to test these builds would be to just change around the combat swords spreadsheet.

I did a very rough look at something like that back in the Rogue review thread (#444): didn't take into account the dps gain from the debuff at all, just trying to quantify the loss in damage for that Rogue.

Anyway, using those Alliance buff numbers (1800ap, 30% crit?) with a pair of Servo Arms to look at the Hemo build I posted at #399:

Average SS: 559
SS dpe: 14
Average SS after aggression, Lethality: 823.6
Final SS dpe: 20.6

Average Hemo: 543
Hemo dpe: 15.5
Avg Hemo after crits: 705.9
Final Hemo dpe: 20.17

Ehh, doesn't look like Hemo's quite there yet. 1 extra CP every 30sec and boosted Rupture damage aren't going to compete against 1/5 Dual Wield, Blade Flurry, Adren Rush, and WEx.

oh, but the evasions! they go on for miles and miles...

Why does everybody forget about the fact that Hemo is a complete waste of a debuff slot? Even if it did increase your raid's physical DPS by 100 points/15 seconds, there are many DoTs that easily wipe the floor with that amount, so there's a pretty good chance you'd be hurting overall RDPS. Rogues may be the strongest DPS class, but they're not the only one @_@

um.... 7 x 30 = 210, given that you can re-apply it approximately once every 3.5 seconds, that's a fairly substantial dps increase (for a single talent point). IMHO i feel that a single hemo rogue in a raid would probably be a net increase in dps, but how much of an increase, and what the best spec to use is... well, i'm still up in the air on.

That math is a little off. That's assuming that all 30 charges are used up in 1 sec. And if so you still need to re-apply it, like you said every 3.5 seconds. So 210/3.5 = 60 DPS increase, also that rogue would probably be using ruptures too since the serrated blade talent is linked to hemo, and since with high AP ruptures tick for around 150 with that talent. About 40 dmg gain from rupture means it's 20 DPS (since rupture ticks every 2 seconds), so hemo would actually add around 80 DPS increase. Also, the hemo rogue would need to spec for Improved Expose, and on times when that's being used instead of Sunder, it might boost overall DPS by (rough estimate) 150 or so. Even then, that means 3 debuff slots are taken up. Which doesn't seem worth it, since I think that it will only come out ahead on fights where you could have a IEA bitch, and that's only worth it when the armor reduction is substantially better from IEA over Sunders.

My corruption averages 270 per tick which is 90DPS. Hemo is a waste of a debuff slot.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY STOP GOING OFF TOPIC !!

Do people even read the OP?

I was just interested in what people thought the best version of hemo spec for PvE would be. Add to the list Kalmans 11/18/22 which seems decent. Compared to 2/27/22 you gain 3crit imp snd relentless and lose 2 offhand spec blade flurry 4 sword spec and 5 weapon skill. For purely pve is that good or not?

I think people are either wondering why you care, or are trying to stop you from making a terrible mistake. That seems like a natural response to me. If a hunter posted discussing a Wyvern Sting or Beastial Wrath build for pure PvE, I imagine they'd get a pretty similar reaction.

What he said.