I know exactly what I am doing, but thanks for caring :)

it's evident that you don't, if you even considered a pve build without at least one point in improved slice 'n dice.

hemo, despite its efficiency, simply cannot match up to the other pve mainstay builds. if you are hellbent on taking hemo, something along the lines of your 21/0/30 build would be best suited for trying to keep up in pve.

I will quote myself again, 'i know exactly what i'm doing but thanks for caring'

I was just trying to find the best theoretical hemo build.

Say that because it has no poins in imp SnD is valid, but because of spending points in sub you have to sacrifice something.

Every talent has its price, no matter how good it is.

4% sword spec 5 weapon skill and 2 offhand spec are also very very good talents. Rather than just making blanket statements that you can't pve without imp SnD, show me that its better. Again please don't misunderstand my point, I totally agree the assass talents are vital, but as you can see, you can gain a hell of a lot by dropping then for the higher combat talents.

Did you read the OP?

Where did you get the idea I was 'hellbent' on going hemo?

Look, the main reason for going hemo is that it's nice for pvp/duels.

It's perfectly understandable to want your pvp build to work in raids as well.

The problem is that to get hemo to a point that will even marginally approach some of the ideal raid dps builds, you completely fuck it up for pvp, while still being crap for raids, making it pointless.

Personally, I think you should either go for a more suitable pve dps build, or stick to a pvp hemo build and persuade your guild to still bring you on raids. Otherwise you're just deliberately making things hard for yourself.

In other words, if you want to use hemo in raids, and are allowed by your guild, go cb/imp gouge/hemo+dirtydeeds+prep. Take a couple points in imp snd as a concession to raid dps. Maybe put the filler to reach tier5 subtlety in opportunity for vael hehe. If not allowed by your guild, why bother trying? Even sealfate rogues will bring more to the raid than you do, and you will be useless for pvp as well, so all it does is screw yourself over.

Maybe an explanation of why you want a build that's more useless for pvp than combat daggers, and worse for raid dps than sealfate, is in order before you start asking people how they would actually do the build.

Honestly, you're pretty lucky we're not talking about feral druids yet. These are the EJ forums, after all.

Since hemo applies to crits and before lethality/bs calculations, what would the floating 210 damage debuff (7 per attack) be like if you assume 5 out of 6 rogues are dagger rogues? I realize its at best a subjective guess, but on average what do you think a raid gets out of a hemo on a boss. 300 damage?

That would make 4 hemos every 6 seconds add 19 damage instead of 10 (assuming everyone involved has a 30% crit rate), for an extra 6 dps.

4 every 6? The hemo debuff I've seen dissapears in less than a second in a raid with good melee (being burnt down from 30 to 1, not knocked off). Its being reapplied every 3.5/4 seconds. In those 30 attacks, with a 30% base crit about 9 attacks are crits. Lets assume we gain another one from a backstab (10). Is that really only 6 dps?

sigh, I know every word of what you typed before I read it...

These replys are so boring.

Well, yes. It's a "solved" problem. Reducing the boss by 300 armor and lack of normalization doesn't remove the loss of the various scaling talents that are the lifeblood of raid DPS. If there were a place for Hemo in PvE, we'd have found it by now. Entirely too much math and brainpower has been put into breaking the guts of rogue formulae.

So... if you already knew what we were going to say, and are consistently a) ignoring or b) getting agitated by our conjecture and advice, and then why did you bother posting this at all? I mean, it's asking a question you already know the answer to.

Each rogue is backstabing once every 6 seconds, and I'm assuming they're able to wait for Hemo to be up before backstabbing, and that Hemo is always being fully consumed. A dagger rogue deals 18.69 extra damage on average from Hemo (60% chance to crit for 230% -- (1.3 * .6 + 1) * 1.5 * 7), while non-backstab Hemo uses deal 9.1 extra damage (unless it's a hunter or arms warrior). 9.59 extra damage, 4 times every 6 seconds = 6.39 extra dps.

I'm interested to see the PvE viability of a 30/0/21 build.

Provided you have 8/9 BS, which comes with the following key points;

-5 energy on hemo crit
evis gives chance to give 100% hemo crit

so crit hemo's give 2 cp's and cost 30 energy

thats a lot of evis / finisher spam

Sorry for getting agitated, but you are again telling me that I asked a question I didn't ask....

Why every 6 seconds? Hemo debuff is being applied and fully consumed every 3.5 seconds. Assuming relentless, SnD and Rupture should never be an issue to throw that cycle off.

1) It's not just backstabs consuming them. You'd have to control the melee attack of every single player to assure that Hemo was used up by as many backstabs as possible.
2) Energy can only regen so fast (1 backstab every 6 seconds).

Well no I wasnt trying to imply that was the case. I'm saying that, more or less, its 210 unmodified damage every 3.5 seconds. Assuming everyones floating at a 37% buffed crit at melee range thats around 287.7. Assuming some of that damage goes to backstab, and stretch it to 300 (no math here just a guess). About 85.7 dps from the floating hemo effect.

Still a net loss though:(

Because it takes six seconds to get enough energy for a backstab?

My questioning had nothing to do with backstab, but the hemo debuff dps in general. It can be applied every 3.5 seconds so looking at a 6 second interval was rather odd.

Because I'm only looking at the extra Hemo dps from backstab compared to a non-backstab use of a hemo charge. If you ignore backstab, the benefits of Hemo are trivial to calculate.

Ah well I'm on the same page as you now atleast. Was still thinking debuff to debuff.