Debunking the 9-second rotation?...

Decker · 07/27/06, 11:52 AM

Smiting XBow > *.

Get over it. Blizzard hasn't figured out how to fix it.

*edit* Should have noted that this doesn't include the Slavemaker...silly mistake on my part ;)

Broken mechanics regardless :)

Lactose · 07/27/06, 11:56 AM

The casting time is ~0.5 seconds. While casting, Auto Shot is delayed if it's ready. However, it's not important. Why? Because you can time it better.
If you wait until the animation of Auto Shot starts, then use Multi-Shot:
Auto Shot is not delayed.
Multi-Shot fires 0.5 seconds later.
Cooldown starts when you activate Multi-Shot - you didn't lose any time.
In my spreadsheet, I've accounted for conflicting cooldowns with Aimed Shot and Multi-Shot. I intentionally made this [edit: multiplier a bit lower] than needed, because of the above ;)
It's not a big enough deal / doesn't happen often enough to debunk the cycle in any way.
:)

Edit: I more and more feel hunters are a timing class. To maximize damage output, it gets more and more important to get the right rhythm, instead of mindlessy spamming whatever's ready. Strange how classes differ so much in endgame opposed to what they did while playing...

Morfina · 07/27/06, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Lactose

Edit: I more and more feel hunters are a timing class. To maximize damage output, it gets more and more important to get the right rhythm, instead of mindlessy spamming whatever's ready. Strange how classes differ so much in endgame opposed to what they did while playing...

I think Blizzard hit something good with this; I don't play a hunter, but I do feel that any class where you can see a considerable difference of DPS on similarly equipped players depending on skill is the right way to go. I'd probably play Hunter if I do go DPS one day, because of that.

Rabid Rob · 07/27/06, 1:36 PM

Aye, hunters are by far all about timing. On fights when I get to stand and deliver, I'm watching my autoshot animation, not the boss, so I can start my next aimed shot at the perfect time. hit it too soon, and I cut off an autoshot. miss the sweet spot, and you waste a fraction of a second or more of an autoshot you're never going to fire. Mods which appear to have an autoshot clock are merely an approximation, if you rely on them, you will be doing suboptimal DPS cycles... but a damn sight bebtter than someone who just mashes buttons!

Ash, by the way, is a 10 second cycle weapon. The Autoshot after Aimed adds ~.5 seconds to the shot clock, the 2nd Autoshot comes out slightly after the 6 second cooldown of Aimed. The Slavemaker, by contrast, as a 3.2 weapon, is perfect for a true 9 second cycle when you add this delay in, but without at least 6 Cryptstalkers, you won't be able to pay the mana bill on that too well, especially if your Horde! They were clearly designed to work together.

Back to Multishot affecting Autoshot... for this very reason, on fights where I'm forced to run around a bit, I try to let Autoshot start firing after running for long enough before hitting Multishot, for a tiny bit more DPS. Again, its timing, and reading your animation! :)

Grimmlokk · 07/27/06, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Morfina

I think Blizzard hit something good with this; I don't play a hunter, but I do feel that any class where you can see a considerable difference of DPS on similarly equipped players depending on skill is the right way to go. I'd probably play Hunter if I do go DPS one day, because of that.

If the sustained DPS thread has shown us anything it's that every DPS class is like this. Though I have to say from playing a friend's hunter some on raids getting the shot cycle down(Rhok) is a lot harder than I imagined it would be=P In my mind I was gonna step in and be blowing everyone away with my mad skill. In practice: Not so much.

Avellyr · 07/27/06, 1:52 PM

The Autoshot after Aimed adds ~.5 seconds to the shot clock, the 2nd Autoshot comes out slightly after the 6 second cooldown of Aimed.

I tested this the other day, and it's correct. The "free" auto shot is actually .5 seconds after the aimed shot, and no spreadsheets account for this. That means that Ashjre'thul uses a 9-second extended cycle instead of a 9-second clipped cycle to maximize dps.

Phon · 07/27/06, 2:10 PM

I did some tests trying to get the Ashjre'thul to a perfect 9 second rotation last week. With +haste to gloves and two Rapidity enchants it still doesn't get to the point where Aimed Shot is "spammable." Personally, I believe the ideal weapon speed is 3.3 instead of the 3.4 Ashjre'thul.

Avellyr · 07/27/06, 5:14 PM

I should also note that the 9-second rotation is still viable. After running the math on most of the high-end weapons, it appears that 3.1 is now the optimal speed for a 9-second clipped rotation. Slower weapons would use the 9-second extended (with faster weapons it varies with damage range). For some reason, nothing is optimal on a 10-second rotation according to my figures. Logically it makes sense, since the timers for aimed and multi crash every cycle in a 10-second rotation as opposed to once every 9 or so in a 9-second rotation.

Avellyr · 07/27/06, 5:25 PM

Mods which appear to have an autoshot clock are merely an approximation, if you rely on them, you will be doing suboptimal DPS cycles... but a damn sight bebtter than someone who just mashes buttons!

Watching your animation is even less accurate most of the time. I find that Zhunter's timers are very accurate. I've never used Sorren's, so i'm not sure about them.

Ash, by the way, is a 10 second cycle weapon. The Autoshot after Aimed adds ~.5 seconds to the shot clock, the 2nd Autoshot comes out slightly after the 6 second cooldown of Aimed.

If by 10-second cycle, you mean longer than 9, then yes. If you're talking about a multi-shot cycle, you're wrong. The optimal cycle is to allow 3 auto shots to fire between aimed shots, and hit your aimed shot as soon as you can following the third auto shot.

The Slavemaker, by contrast, as a 3.2 weapon, is perfect for a true 9 second cycle when you add this delay in, but without at least 6 Cryptstalkers, you won't be able to pay the mana bill on that too well, especially if your Horde! They were clearly designed to work together.

When I was doing the cycle math for these, I found that the third auto shot will actually fire at 9.06 seconds in a true 9-second rotation. This is because I took the precision of the speed out to 7 decimal places. I have no idea where WoW's combat engine rounds decimals, but if it takes it to 3 places or beyond, there's a chance that you could cut off your auto shot by spamming aimed shot. Not a big chance, since you would be hard pressed to hit the button in that .06 second window even while spamming, but definitely a chance.

RK · 07/27/06, 7:26 PM

I've never seen the maths actually done for the Toxin Injector, especially not maths including the extra 0.5 second between aimed and the first autoshot being discussed here... given the bonus fast weapons got from normalization and the way it gets at least one, perhaps two extra shots per cycle (depending on the cycle length), is it actually much better than its being given credit for? Most posts I've seen relating to it have been along the lines of "2.0 lol, slower is better", but there's more to it than that as I understand it.

Slower is certainly better for PvP burst DPS, but do the extra shots per cycle from the 2.0 weapon (especially with a +7 scope in the mix) give higher sustained dps than Ashjre'thul? If not, how close is it?

Charky · 07/28/06, 2:48 AM

Toxin Injector is still bad. It looses too much autoshot time waiting for the Aimed Shot to cast as well as the AP bonus to autoshots having much less of an effect.

On a side note, the delay in my cycle (for whatever reasons) puts Rhok firing its 3rd shot exactly at 9 seconds. I'm not sure how 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 weapon speeds act. If 2.9 is the optimal 9 sec rotation for me, would that make the 4 Horseman Bow my optimal weapon?

Decker · 07/28/06, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Lactose

Edit: I more and more feel hunters are a timing class. To maximize damage output, it gets more and more important to get the right rhythm, instead of mindlessy spamming whatever's ready. Strange how classes differ so much in endgame opposed to what they did while playing...

When should we expect our DDR like rotation mod? :)

As much as I kid I can see something like this happening...

Ashuko · 07/28/06, 9:27 AM

Originally Posted by Lactose

In my spreadsheet...

Lactose, could you post a link to your spreadsheet in this thread?

Lactose · 07/28/06, 10:07 AM

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=7312

Currently reworking it from scratch, mostly due to it being... very annoying for me to edit or add stuff to.

Lactose · 07/30/06, 5:13 PM

My own testing (also on the servants... poor mobs...) gave a number closer to 0.5 (0.5329) seconds for Auto Shot to fire after Aimed Shot. Guessing it's a bit related to FPS and possibly lag.

If people are interested, I could redo the "damage cycles breakdown" post with a 0.5 delay after Aimed Shot added (basically, allowing 5.5 seconds for Auto Shot instead of 6 in the clipped cycles). If I did, I'd also use a higher gear standard, and with some small corrections.

So... how's the interest? :P

Avellyr · 07/30/06, 5:17 PM

I'd be interested, if only to see how they compare to my numbers. I definitely found one pleasant surprise when I did it.

Lactose · 07/30/06, 5:23 PM

My initial guess would be the Nerubian Slavemaker is a bigger upgrade than I currently think ;)

A thought... instead of doing it with actual weapons (and their respective stats), I could compare weapon speeds, using a constant DPS to compare how speed affects damage output... then just add final values for some of the more interesting weapons (Rhok'delar, Ashjre'thul, Huhuran's Stinger, Bow of the Four Horsemen, Nerubian Slavemaker).

Comments?

Starks · 07/30/06, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by Lactose

My initial guess would be the Nerubian Slavemaker is a bigger upgrade than I currently think ;)

A thought... instead of doing it with actual weapons (and their respective stats), I could compare weapon speeds, using a constant DPS to compare how speed affects damage output... then just add final values for some of the more interesting weapons (Rhok'delar, Ashjre'thul, Huhuran's Stinger, Bow of the Four Horsemen, Nerubian Slavemaker).

Comments?

I for one would very much like to see this research.

Lactose · 07/30/06, 6:32 PM

Fair enough... I'll get it posted as soon as possible.
Which speeds and what gear setup should I do this for? Obviously using 15% quiver... Other than that, how does this sound?
1600 RAP
30% ranged crit
MM spec (Barrage and RWS maxed)
Thorium ammo

Weapon speeds (before quiver): 2 -> 3.4

Any comments on this, or does that setup sound ok? Please note that this'll take a time to finish, so don't expect it up within the hour ;)

Phon · 07/30/06, 7:18 PM

I would love to see the comparison of weapon speeds.

Again, with the decreasing prices of Rapidity enchants, it's very easy to get up to a 18% speed increase with the haste enchant and two Rapidities to get any "Ideal" weapon speed.

It would also be interesting to see if the autoshot delay is the same for all weapon speeds stays the same.

Kvastpanda · 07/30/06, 7:23 PM

Would be very nice, and Id love it if you included Crossbow of Imminent Doom cos it might actually be better than the allmighty smiter

Starks · 07/30/06, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by Kvastpanda

Would be very nice, and Id love it if you included Crossbow of Imminent Doom cos it might actually be better than the allmighty smiter

How do you figure that?

Charky · 07/30/06, 8:29 PM

He is saying that Crossbow of Imminent Doom is closer to the ideal cycle due to the 0.5 second delay, so its possible it might actually yield a higher DPS.

Also, I too would like to see that kind of research, Lactose.

Lactose · 07/31/06, 1:09 AM

1600 RAP
30% ranged crit
3/3 Barrage
5/5 Mortal Shots
5/5 Ranged Weapon Specialization
+7 scope
Thorium ammo (17.5 DPS)
Setting DPS of all ranged weapons to 45.
Assuming 100% hit rate.

Timestamps not including Multi-Shots (every cycle basically has a "+ Multi-Shot").

Speed: 2.0 (Reduced to 1.74 with quiver). AutoShot = 524, AimedShot = 1533, Multi-Shot = 1008

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
2.24 Auto Shot fires			2.24 Auto Shot fires
3.98 Auto Shot fires			3.98 Auto Shot fires
5.72 Auto Shot fires			5.72 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			7.46 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			7.46 Start Aimed Shot
					10.46 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 499.22				DPS:493.40

Speed: 2.1 (Reduced to 1.83 with quiver). AutoShot = 550, AimedShot = 1542, Multi-Shot = 1018

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
2.33 Auto Shot fires			2.33 Auto Shot fires
4.16 Auto Shot fires			4.16 Auto Shot fires
5.99 Auto Shot fires			5.99 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			7.82 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			7.82 Start Aimed Shot
					10.82 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 512.73				DPS: 490.76

Speed: 2.2 (Reduced to 1.91 with quiver). AutoShot = 575, AimedShot = 1551, Multi-Shot = 1028

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
2.41 Auto Shot fires			2.41 Auto Shot fires
4.32 Auto Shot fires			4.32 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			6.23 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			6.23 Start Aimed Shot
					9.23 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 461.9				DPS: 514.68

Speed: 2.3 (Reduced to 2.00 with quiver). AutoShot = 601, AimedShot = 1560, Multi-Shot = 1039

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
2.5 Auto Shot fires			2.5 Auto Shot fires
4.5 Auto Shot fires			4.5 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			6.5 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			6.5 Start Aimed Shot
					9.5 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 472.62				DPS: 518.22

Speed: 2.4 (Reduced to 2.09 with quiver). AutoShot = 627, AimedShot = 1569, Multi-Shot = 1049

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
2.59 Auto Shot fires			2.59 Auto Shot fires
4.68 Auto Shot fires			4.68 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			6.77 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			6.77 Start Aimed Shot
					9.77 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 483.24				DPS: 520.69

Speed: 2.5 (Reduced to 2.17 with quiver). AutoShot = 652, AimedShot = 1578, Multi-Shot = 1059

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
2.67 Auto Shot fires			2.67 Auto Shot fires
4.84 Auto Shot fires			4.84 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			7.01 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			7.01 Start Aimed Shot
					10.01 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 493.52				DPS: 523.98

Speed: 2.6 (Reduced to 2.26 with quiver). AutoShot = 678, AimedShot = 1587, Multi-Shot = 1070

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
2.76 Auto Shot fires			2.76 Auto Shot fires
5.02 Auto Shot fires			5.02 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			7.28 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			7.28 Start Aimed Shot
					10.28 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 504.24				DPS: 522.28

Speed: 2.7 (Reduced to 2.35 with quiver). AutoShot = 704, AimedShot = 1596, Multi-Shot = 1080

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
2.85 Auto Shot fires			2.85 Auto Shot fires
5.2 Auto Shot fires			5.2 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			7.55 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			7.55 Start Aimed Shot
					10.55 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 514.86				DPS: 520.57

Speed: 2.8 (Reduced to 2.43 with quiver). AutoShot = 729, AimedShot = 1605, Multi-Shot = 1090

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
2.93 Auto Shot fires			2.93 Auto Shot fires
5.36 Auto Shot fires			5.36 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			7.79 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			7.79 Start Aimed Shot
					10.79 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 525.14				DPS: 520.02

Speed: 2.9 (Reduced to 2.52 with quiver). AutoShot = 755, AimedShot = 1614, Multi-Shot =1101

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
3.02 Auto Shot fires			3.02 Auto Shot fires
5.54 Auto Shot fires			5.54 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			8.06 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			8.06 Start Aimed Shot
					11.06 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 535.86				DPS: 518.54

Speed: 3.0 (Reduced to 2.61 with quiver). AutoShot = 781, AimedShot = 1623, Multi-Shot =1111

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
3.11 Auto Shot fires			3.11 Auto Shot fires
5.72 Auto Shot fires			5.72 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			8.33 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			8.33 Start Aimed Shot
					11.33 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 546.48				DPS: 517.03

Speed: 3.1 (Reduced to 2.70 with quiver). AutoShot = 806, AimedShot = 1632, Multi-Shot = 1121

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
3.2 Auto Shot fires			3.2 Auto Shot fires
5.9 Auto Shot fires			5.9 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			8.6 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			8.6 Start Aimed Shot
					11.6 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 556.76				DPS: 515.26

Speed: 3.2 (Reduced to 2.78 with quiver). AutoShot = 832, AimedShot = 1641, Multi-Shot = 1132

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
3.28 Auto Shot fires			3.28 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			6.06 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			6.06 Start Aimed Shot
					9.06 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 475.03				DPS: 563.72

Speed: 3.3 (Reduced to 2.87 with quiver). AutoShot = 858, AimedShot = 1650, Multi-Shot = 1142

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
3.37Auto Shot fires			3.37Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			6.24Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			6.24Start Aimed Shot
					9.24Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 482.76				DPS: 565.29

Speed: 3.4 (Reduced to 2.96 with quiver). AutoShot = 883, AimedShot = 1659, Multi-Shot = 1153

Clipped					Unclipped
0.5 Free Auto Shot			0.5 Free Auto Shot
3.46 Auto Shot fires			3.46 Auto Shot fires
6.0 Start Aimed Shot			6.42 Auto Shot fires
9.0 Aimed Shot fires			6.42 Start Aimed Shot
					9.42 Aimed Shot fires
DPS: 490.37				DPS: 568.6

Worst optimal cycle: 499.22 DPS (1.74 quiver speed, clipped)
Best optimal cycle: 568.6 DPS (2.96 quiver speed, unclipped)
Difference: 69.38 DPS - proof enough of broken ranged damage mechanics? :P

Formulae used:
AverageWeaponDamage: 45*WeaponSpeed --- Used a constant weapon DPS, so the average damage had to vary.
Auto Shot damage: AmmoDPS*WeaponSpeed+1.05*(RAP/14*WeaponSpeed+7+AverageWeaponDamage)) --- 1.05 = Ranged Weapon Specialization damage bonus, 7 = Scope damage
Aimed Shot damage: AmmoDPS*WeaponSpeed+1.05*(RAP/14*2,8+7+AverageWeaponDamage+600)) --- 600 = Aimed Shot damage bonus
Multi-Shot damage: MSCoEff* (AmmoDPS*WeaponSpeed+1.05*(RAP/14*2,8+7+AverageWeaponDamage+120))*1.15) --- MSCoEff = Coefficient for Multi-Shot (see below), 120 = Multi-Shot damage bonus, 1.15 = Barrage damage bonus
Factoring in crits (all shots): Hit*(1+1,3*0,3)
Multi-Shot coefficient for cycles not exceeding 10 seconds: ROUNDDOWN(6/(10-Time)) / ROUNDDOWN(1+6/(10-Time))) --- Attempt to factor in Multi-Shot damage lost due to conflicting timers (Aimed Shot and Multi-Shot). Time = Time taken for cycle. Multi-Shot coefficient for cycles 10 seconds or longer = 1.

Too tired to post with values for actual weapons right now, will do so at a later time.

Avellyr · 07/31/06, 1:37 AM

My initial guess would be the Nerubian Slavemaker is a bigger upgrade than I currently think

Yup, as you can see by comparing the 3.2 and 3.4 clipped cycles to the 3.2 and 3.4 unclipped cycles, shifting both weapons to an unclipped cycle to compensate for the .5 seconds causes the slavemaker to gain about 10 dps.