I understand that the initial mage who crits gets counted as doing all the Ignite damage for damage/aggro purposes. Every ignite after the initial one gets added on to the roll and increases the length of the debuff.
First- Does critting reset the debuff's timer, or is it still just working off the initial one and adding on. That is, if the 2nd crit follows one second after the first, would it be 2 seconds or 3 seconds until the first ignite tick?
Second- What happens when the Ignite hits 5 debuffs and there's another crit. Does it keep rolling or is it just ignored?
1) Yes, new crit resets the timer
2) No idea
3) Hard to say, but it seems more than minor debuffs like DW or fireball dot, and looks like more than warlock dots
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
The debuff priority on ignite is pretty low as of 1.11 since they implemented parts of their debuff priority system. Ignite is a uncontrolled dot/procced debuff which has a generally lower priority than controlled dots and passive debuffs (CoE,CoS,CoR, sunder, faerie fire etc).
Thus ignite gets bumped off alot more nowdays, which honestly is fucked up since ignite is one of the best dots out there and this is a special case since we´re the only class with a spread out critbonus like that.
This basically means that insane debuffs like fireball dot, serpent sting, shadow word pain and moonfire has a higher priority than ignite, working as intended?
I was under the impression that it rolls like:
Ignite A
Ignite A+B
Ignite A+B+C
Ignite A+B+C+D
Ignite A+B+C+D+E
Ignite B+C+D+E+F meaning that new ignites replace the old ignites OR higher ignites replaces lower ignites. As we all know, ignite is capped to 5 as of 1.11, and this theory takes that into account.
But this picture kinda burned that theory to the ground
Judging by that picture, ignite only counts the 5 first crits then ignites added after that will only keep rolling the same ignite, not add any damage.
It´d be easy to test but I always disable periodic creature damage since it spams the combatlog. Anyone that tried Loatheb can surely tell exactly how it works.
However, if it only counts the 5 first crits and nothing else, that means that if you crit 5 times with scorch and then for some reason starts fireballing and crit with those, you lose lots of ignite damage since the 5 scorch ignites were there first. If that's the case then I really hope they'll reconsider and make higher ignites replace lower ignites at least. That's also a way of rolling it.
Judging by that picture, ignite only counts the 5 first crits then ignites added after that will only keep rolling the same ignite, not add any damage.
As someone playing in a guild with 6 fire mages on Naxx raids, this is correct. Stronger crits DO NOT replace weaker crits, either. This means that the most effective way to start an ignite is to have all your mages simultaneously blow combustion and fireball, and when the stack reaches 5, Scorch to maintain it as long as possible.
When you're not using Combustion, though, Scorch is still the best way to roll ignites because fireball's long casting time makes it extremely unlikely you'll be able to roll an Ignite without getting very lucky.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
Judging by that picture, ignite only counts the 5 first crits then ignites added after that will only keep rolling the same ignite, not add any damage.
As someone playing in a guild with 6 fire mages on Naxx raids, this is correct. Stronger crits DO NOT replace weaker crits, either. This means that the most effective way to start an ignite is to have all your mages simultaneously blow combustion and fireball, and when the stack reaches 5, Scorch to maintain it as long as possible.
This is more or less exactly what i was about to post. The combustion trick to get a good initial ignite stack, followed by scorch spam is a great way of getting a decent rolling ignite up. But without combustion its much harder to make the most out of rolling ignites. What would be incredibly useful is some sort of mod that constantly displays some information about the current ignite stack in and window on your screen. Info like:
- Number of ignites stacked
- Dmg of last ignite tick
- Owner of the ignite (for agro purposes)
- a small countdown to when the current ignite will tick off. This would need to be reset every time someone refreshes the ignite with another crit.
While scorch is the best way to keep a rolling ignite going, even with a x5 ignite stack up just from scorch, its still lower overall dps to just Fireball spam (if dividing the rolling ignite dps between say 5 mages). So the ideal situation is to use fireball (mana permitting) as much as possible until you have an ignite that is exceeding x per tick (x varies based on number of mages and various other factors, but is roughly around 1700 per tick) at which point if you switch to scorch to keep the ignite ticking over you will be doing the same, or more dps, as fireball spam but using a more mana efficient spell.
Keeping 3-4k Ignite ticks rolling just creates some insane dps with obscene mana efficiency.
So if anyone knows of such a mod, or is capable of making one, let me know ;D
First- Does critting reset the debuff's timer, or is it still just working off the initial one and adding on. That is, if the 2nd crit follows one second after the first, would it be 2 seconds or 3 seconds until the first ignite tick?
While in general new crit resets the timer, there is an exception case.
Ignite is a 20% of crit damage every tick (2 secs) from the initial crit. If you follow a crit with another crit before the first tick of the initial ignite, you won't see a rolling ignite behavior. Given casting time and spell "travel" time, this basically means following up a crit with an instant cast crit, but if that happens the typical rolling ignite behavior of:
First- Does critting reset the debuff's timer, or is it still just working off the initial one and adding on. That is, if the 2nd crit follows one second after the first, would it be 2 seconds or 3 seconds until the first ignite tick?
While in general new crit resets the timer, there is an exception case.
Ignite is a 20% of crit damage every tick (2 secs) from the initial crit. If you follow a crit with another crit before the first tick of the initial ignite, you won't see a rolling ignite behavior. Given casting time and spell "travel" time, this basically means following up a crit with an instant cast crit, but if that happens the typical rolling ignite behavior of:
I was under the impression each tick was half of the ignite dmg (or 30% of the crit value). So when you crit you don't cause any ignite dmg immediately, instead it waits 2 seconds then ticks once for half the ignite dmg followed by another tick 2 seconds later for the remainder of the dmg.
Your post suggests that ignite ticks once straight away for 1/3 of the ignite dmg (followed by 1/3 of the dmg 2 and 4 seconds later).
Uh that is correct, when you crit 40% of your total crit damage is spread out over a 4 second dot which ticks for 50% of the ignite damage every 2 seconds.
First- Does critting reset the debuff's timer, or is it still just working off the initial one and adding on. That is, if the 2nd crit follows one second after the first, would it be 2 seconds or 3 seconds until the first ignite tick?
While in general new crit resets the timer, there is an exception case.
Ignite is a 20% of crit damage every tick (2 secs) from the initial crit. If you follow a crit with another crit before the first tick of the initial ignite, you won't see a rolling ignite behavior. Given casting time and spell "travel" time, this basically means following up a crit with an instant cast crit, but if that happens the typical rolling ignite behavior of:
I was under the impression each tick was half of the ignite dmg (or 30% of the crit value). So when you crit you don't cause any ignite dmg immediately, instead it waits 2 seconds then ticks once for half the ignite dmg followed by another tick 2 seconds later for the remainder of the dmg.
Your post suggests that ignite ticks once straight away for 1/3 of the ignite dmg (followed by 1/3 of the dmg 2 and 4 seconds later).
My apologies if I wasn't clear. Total ignite is 40% of the crit damage, but it's a DoT that ticks twice. Each tick is 2 secs. The exception case I was referring to is what happens when you essentially crit twice "instantly" i.e. within a second or so of each other. In such a case, ignites will stack for 2 tick duration, instead of 3.
Sidebar question (god I love the discussions here):
Would it be sensical to scorch spam up to 5x vul, let the ignites (intentionally) roll off from that, THEN hit combustion and trinket/fireball spam, swapping back to scorch?
Specificly, I'm remembering another discussion where people were getting %-based modifers being applied twice to ignite- once on the intial cast of fireball, followed up by an additional 20% to the scorch damage. 4% damage is nothing to sneeze at, but is it worth doing this?
For even sicker numbers, ponder Nightfall, waiting for a proc to transfer from scorch maintenence to Fireball....
Just my random thoughts....
Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
My Scorch Crits (Ignite starts here at 0 seconds), followed up by another Scorch crit (about 1.6 seconds after the first one). Does the Ignite first tick at 3.6 seconds or 2 seconds?
How does Improved Scorch work with Ignite? If, for example, my Fireball crits then I put an Improved Scorch debuff on there in between Ignite ticks, does the 2nd ignite tick for more damage?
Also, when someone dies and their Ignite keeps rolling, does it become damageless aggro? What if they were combat rezzed or soulstoned?
---
I'm mostly asking because I'm trying to figure out the way to optimize Ignite damage with 4 or more Fire mages in the raid.
How worth it is it to have one or two fire mages in your raid if the others are frost? Most of our mages have a strong preference for frost, and it seems to me that I may be better off speccing frost to benefit from winter's chill rather than trying to keep an ignite rolling by myself. Thoughts? (We are attempting gluth at the moment).
You dont need rolling ignites to beat frost mages, just keep the debuff up with a scorch every 4-7 fireballs and you'll be outdamaging frost mages.
I was the only fire mage in my guild for a while myself, keeping up with full pve spec frost mages with my 21/30 pvp-pve fire spec. I re-speced to 17/31/3 (pretty much full pve) and now was ahead, then another frost mage saw the light and spec fire, noticable rolling ignites increase, as well as both our dps.
Ignoring rolling ignites, a Fire Mage will do close to the DPS of Frostbolt spam and close to the DPM of Frostbolt Spam (with Scorch). The DPS increases dramatically if the Fire mage has the mana to work with Fireball and possibly Fireblast. The DPS for fire mages is also higher on trash mobs where they can start with Fireball without having to build up with Scorch.
DPS/+dmg for Scorch is approximately 0.385
DPS/+dmg for Frostbolt is approximately 0.380 (without Arcane Instability)
The ideal situation for Frostmages is one with Winter's Chill and the rest going 28/23.
Does anyone have a successful method of convincing long-time frost mages to switch to fire? I've tried to lure them with the DPS carrot and offering to go halfsies on respec but with little success. The only other fire mage is 0/30/21 elementalist, who doesn't see the usefulness of clearcast/arcane med/combustion. All I really want is a chance to make and use a coordinated combustion macro =)
havent found a reliable one beside crushing them in dmg meters ;p
seriously tho, many ppl like their habits and also many mages like the fact that they can just press 1 button an entire fight, on 90% of the fights and voila (ugh, how boring)... theres not much you can do beside showing them numbers and arguing :P
ie - iceblock is so good ! cant give it up !!... then you talk of when you actualy use it... razuv,anub,maexnna, patchwerk, grobbulus ? nope... would more range be nice on any of thoses fights ? sure. more dps ? always...
I haven't found a way to convince any to play a fire mage, but my guild mages are about 1/3 fire and 2/3 frost. With typically only 2 fire mages in the raid we can still get some interesting rolling ignites going from time to time, but it's not a consistant thing. Still having more than one fire mage does seem to benefit the overall raid dps.
If you are trying to talk iceblock frost mages into fire, you might want to bring up the fact that limited invulnerability pot can substitute for iceblock on melee damage encounters.
One thing to remember though is that because of rolling ignite, fire mages' damage is a collective effort, so depending on who gets to start ignite rolls, your position on damage meter will vary.
What would be incredibly useful is some sort of mod that constantly displays some information about the current ignite stack in and window on your screen. Info like:
- Number of ignites stacked
- Dmg of last ignite tick
- Owner of the ignite (for agro purposes)
- a small countdown to when the current ignite will tick off. This would need to be reset every time someone refreshes the ignite with another crit.
Would also be interested to see if it would be possible to make something like this.
Possibly link it into Natur's enemy cast bars and implement a check, 'X is afflicted by ignite (5)' and have the cast bar have a 4 second timer on it but have it tie into the combat log so it resets when a mage gets another crits before 'ignite fades from X' happens.
Would be extremely useful if anyone has any idea how to do it or can point me in the right direction where to ask.
1 mage No COE no IS
0 S Fireball started casting
3 S Fireball leaves hands
3.10 S New Fireball casting
3.2 S Fireball hits target Crit 100!
5.2 S Ignite tics for 20
6.10 S Fireball leaves hands
6.20 S Fireball casting
6.3 S fireball crits! 100!
7.2 S ignite tics! 40!
9.20 S Fiaahball leaves hands.
9.20 S Ignite tics! 40! Expired
9.3 S Fireball casting
9.4 S Fireball crits! 100 Fireball casting
11.4 S Ignite tics 20.
As we can see, fireball spam is not good for ignites alone.
First guy server wide to crit recieves ownership.
Next five consequitive crits within the 2s intervals get stacked
All other crits make tic counter = 2, do not reset timer, do not apply their own ignite dmg.
Best way to convince a frost mage is have them raid with a -good- fire mage, show damage meters
Ice block is never needed.
Sidebar question (god I love the discussions here):
Would it be sensical to scorch spam up to 5x vul, let the ignites (intentionally) roll off from that, THEN hit combustion and trinket/fireball spam, swapping back to scorch?
The first thing you do is putting 5 fire vuln. on the mob of course, then you go combustion get the 3 crits and immideatly start scorching. If you have multiple mages with combustion, you should make them enable it shortly after you aswell (most fire mages should dump their combustion in the start of the fight anyway so you can use it again asap) basically making a short queue to ensure that it rolls for as long as possible.
I'm gonna try to set this up myself with macros, I imagine there will be arguing over the order, but what the hell, its good as long as anyone gets the damage.
Originally Posted by Copernicus
How does Improved Scorch work with Ignite? If, for example, my Fireball crits then I put an Improved Scorch debuff on there in between Ignite ticks, does the 2nd ignite tick for more damage?
Also, when someone dies and their Ignite keeps rolling, does it become damageless aggro? What if they were combat rezzed or soulstoned?
---
I'm mostly asking because I'm trying to figure out the way to optimize Ignite damage with 4 or more Fire mages in the raid.
Yes improved scorch debuff will instantly magnify the ignite damage.
I doubt the game will recognize that the damage dealer dies and somehow determine who should get the ignite next, so lets assume that the mage that got credit for the damage in the beginning keeps getting it even after death.
I doubt the game will recognize that the damage dealer dies and somehow determine who should get the ignite next, so lets assume that the mage that got credit for the damage in the beginning keeps getting it even after death.
I can confirm that that happens with Deadly Poison, at the very least, so I would assume that Ignite works the same way.
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
The first thing you do is putting 5 fire vuln. on the mob of course, then you go combustion get the 3 crits and immideatly start scorching. If you have multiple mages with combustion, you should make them enable it shortly after you aswell (most fire mages should dump their combustion in the start of the fight anyway so you can use it again asap) basically making a short queue to ensure that it rolls for as long as possible.
-snip-
Yes improved scorch debuff will instantly magnify the ignite damage.
Since we're effectively dealing with a set amount of damage, just extended out, waiting till a Nightfall warrior has a full bar of rage then spamming till they get a proc, then activating trinkets/combustion NOW macro...with a 10% proc rate on it in the hands of a 2handed fury build, seems like the proc would be relatively easy to force. It only lasts 5 seconds, so that's only one fireball, unless you get lucky and are in 5 piece NW, so maybe 2 or 3 warriors swapping to Nightfall -just- for this inital stack? It's not like the axe is even expensive for a guild that farms MC (with the obvious exception of 20 arcanite, which is hardly hideous).
Just a thought. You lose some shortterm dps, but it seems like the long term benifit (depending if you can keep that ignite going) might more than make up for it.
Or maybe I'm just reading way too much into the potential of this.
Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
I understand that the initial mage who crits gets counted as doing all the Ignite damage for damage/aggro purposes. Every ignite after the initial one gets added on to the roll and increases the length of the debuff.
First- Does critting reset the debuff's timer, or is it still just working off the initial one and adding on. That is, if the 2nd crit follows one second after the first, would it be 2 seconds or 3 seconds until the first ignite tick?
Second- What happens when the Ignite hits 5 debuffs and there's another crit. Does it keep rolling or is it just ignored?
Third- What is the debuff priority on ignites?
First - Yes
Second - Keeps rolling, top 5 crits done so far that ignite get combined into one (as far as I can tell)
Third - I don't think it really matters how high the priority is, it only lasts 4 seconds before getting refreshed.
07/27/06, 6:09 PM
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