Jekar

I noticed an inconsistency on a Vaelstraz fight last night. I was watching KTM with my newly leveled Fury Warrior pretty closely as my DPS was approaching our Rogues even before the <20% execution started, and I pulled aggro off the main tank while I was still almost 2,500 threat behind.

I was generating all of my DPS with a 2Hand weapon and Windfury, by spamming Bloodthirst and Hamstring any time Bloodthirst wasn't up to generate additional Windfury attacks.

It happened again on a 2nd run, so I am forced to assume that Hamstring generates some amount of threat above and beyond the damage dealt. Has anyone ever looked into this?

 

studski

I would do some testing outside of just readings from a threat meter. Those things can be quite innacurate.

 

Ultramax

I don't believe it's just Hamstring. I've had accuracy problems with KTM on the last Vaelastrasz I did as well and I was in defensive stance the entire time.

 

• Fogbug

I wonder if they broke it somehow

I can easily see "Blizzard broke KTM this patch" becoming the new "Onyxia is deep breathing more", though

 

Starks

You should let Kenco know about this on his R&D thread, may have already been answered in there.

 

Thorb

Same deal, we had 2-3 transitions "out of order" according to KTM after the last version got upgraded. Not sure what exactly is the reason. We had some guy with TF go before he was supposed to, and some other occurance without TF.

So yeah they broke something somewhere.

 

Ultramax

As anyone noticed a non-Vael incident of innacuracy though?

 

Nite_Moogle

My jboots are slower as well.

 

Mist

People really use KTM?

 

Beliandra

Well, since Curse Gaming is showing more than half a million downloads of it, I'd say that, yes, people really do use KTM. Are you genuinely surprised, or was that just an attempt at a leeter-than-thou sledge?

 

LucidityAxel

If your guild's experience with KLH Threat Meters is anything like my guild's, then some of you will have it installed for a few minutes and then disable it as soon as you see the horrendous things it can do to your UI performance. It did some really nasty stuff in the shared CTRA channel so the people who didn't even have it installed got to share the love.

 

Maledict

KTM is known to be innacurate on Vael.

I think it's because of the *massive* amounts of info going through your CTraid channel during that fight, or some part of Blizzards optimisation code to reduce the lag, but it simply isn't very useful on that fight if you are trying to use it to precisely calibrate the fight.

Most comon case is rogues - it either misses them vanishing or something, because you can have rogues about the MT on threat and not having aggro.

 

Starks

Did Vael the other day, and it seemed to work just fine. What kinds of problems are people experiencing? Tanks pulling aggro out of order?

I've also never heard of it causing any lag problems, and I've been using it since it was first made.

 

Mal

1 point of rage generated is 5 hate.

I think that KTM approximates this by keeping track of the rage cost and adding it to the threat generated by an ability. However, by taking a glance at the code it does so only for high thread abilities. So basically everytime you spam hamstring it shorts you 25 hate on the list. The same goes for cleaves, whirlwind etc.

Aside from that I don't think anyone did research if rage generated past the 100 rage is discounted or if it still counts towards your current threat level. Which is probably relevant during the vael encounter.

Anyway I could be wrong, I only took a glance at KTM_Data.lua, and did not find entries for hamstring.

 

Anaram

I believe no type of overhealing generates extra threat (whether it's mana, rage, energy or health healing). Unfortunately I can't give a reference to that information.

 

Wong-Fei-Hung

For Vael you pretty much have to wing it... I was listed as second for Vael on Friday and ended up tanking 4th :P

I pretty much only use KTM to give me a general idea.... although it works well for other fights (which in BWL means drakes and Broodlord). I've had it fubar on Chromaggus. Not that its needed for Chromaggus, usually only have it up cause I forget to close it.

 

Jekar

I'll keep that in mind for Vael I guess, I wasn't really on the tank rotation that time, so I had my 2hander out and was cranking on the DPS, I kept myself at about 85% of the top Rogues DPS, and just before the first tank transition, I pulled aggro. Which really shouldn't happen since I should have the same aggro reduction as the Rogues (who don't feint on that fight; I never do with my Rogue), and I was below all of them in DPS. They also don't vanish until during the first transition.

Rage generation doesn't really explain it, becasue if Essence of the Red is creating aggro it should be constant accross all Warriors.

Anyway, I took a 5300 damage crit through my DPS plate and ate it instantly. Not the way you want to go the first time you bring an alt to a fight.

 

Quebeen

I'm wondering if there have been any revelations regarding this subject... I failed to find any using the search function so pls excuse me if I overlooked something ;x

I ask because I noticed a significant change in my threat as a hamspamming 2H Fury DPS Warrior, and I'm sure this is not because of gear changes, since there havent been any, unfortunately ;P When I change from hamspam to cleavage my threat rises like a snail, but its not damage efficient at all with my current build which relies greatly on flurry...

Anyhow, any links or anecdotes regarding hamstring and the base threat generated by it is greatly appreciated ;>

 

Deathwing

Are you horde?

 

Quebeen

Nope, but HSing is not an option if thats where you're going ;P HSing just gets me on top of the threat meter ;/

So, am I the only one that thinks the base threat Hamstring generates got boosted? I can imagine it as a nerf to the horde warriors DPS output whilst combining hamspam with a windfury totem, or just a general nerf of the hamspam strategy.. /shrug

 

Deathwing

No, that's not where I was going.

Anyway, hamstring counts for a lot more than face value, especially for a 2H warrior. Even without windfury totem, the extra hits more than doubles your yellow connects per seconds, considerably upping your crusader and flurry uptime. Cleave does none of that. That's the only thing I can think of.

Profile of gear and spec would be helpfull as well.

 

Quebeen

http://ctprofiles.net/1744772 is my max Raid DPS profile ;] Strangely enough I was able to do more DPS (with the same tank, who recently did get some gear upgrades) with hamspamming before 1.11 then after due to me having to hold back on the threat list ;/ Other DPSers havent had a similar problem and other DPS warriors arent really competing with me damagewise.

Edit: Oh sorry; at CTProfiles pls select DPS 2H Raid ;]

 

Kenco

I'm not sure what is wrong with KTM on Vael, but i've seen tank threat order problems with two different raid groups. In both cases it seemed to me that there was one tank who would not get aggro despite KTM saying he was next in line. But in both cases the ordering was wrong with just this one tank, the others seemed correct.

Specific abilities i can't see anything wrong. Cleave is in the latest version, also powergain overheal. Hamstring isn't implemented, but it hasn't been the problem in the tank transition errors i've witnessed. Unfortunately Vael isn't the greatest fight for debugging. I'm open to suggestions.

BTW, to turn off Time Lapse, which doesn't seem to be happening in 1.12, run this command:
/ktm boss setspell timelapse default multiplier 1.0

 

Wong-Fei-Hung

Edit: Bah, necrothread! Already posted what I meant to say earlier :P

 

Celandro

I'm fairly certain that every single debuff has agro if it sticks. That includes snares (hamstring, piercing howl), attack speed debuffs (TF/tclap), AP debuffs (demo shout), resist debuffs (tf proc), etc. Furthermore I predict that the agro of the abilitiy is some base amount * the strength of the debuff (it might not be straight multiplication though).

From a programming point of view, it is far easier and less error prone to assign a hate value for 1% snare and then multiply it by the strength of the snare for every snare in the game then it is to manually assign a hate value to every single debuff.