Anyone know how much base threat is generated by Hamstring? - Page 2

altairian · 08/31/06, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Quebeen

http://ctprofiles.net/1744772 is my max Raid DPS profile ;] Strangely enough I was able to do more DPS (with the same tank, who recently did get some gear upgrades) with hamspamming before 1.11 then after due to me having to hold back on the threat list ;/ Other DPSers havent had a similar problem and other DPS warriors arent really competing with me damagewise.

Edit: Oh sorry; at CTProfiles pls select DPS 2H Raid ;]

...you have a thunderfury and your guild lets you dps with bonereavers? o_O
must be nice lol

Anyways, I haven't done a lot of research in to this but I believe this is what happened in 1.12: When blizz made all the thread reduction stuff multiplicative, this included the innate threat reduction that rogues and warriors in battle/zerk stance get (20%). Rogues had their innate threat reduction buffed to 29% to compensate for this, warriors did not. So in a nutshell, salvation is doing less for you in 1.12, and that's what's causing your aggro issues.

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me =)

Deathwing · 08/31/06, 1:32 PM

Yes, but threat generation by tanks was also buffed from 145% to 1.495%, making the change in warrior agro cap pretty much nothing.

Kasi · 08/31/06, 1:36 PM

I think I recalled seeing on the threat thread on R&D that someone had done tests on hamstring and shown that it did around 120-130 (modified by stance) threat seperate from the damage it did. Not sure if anyone else has backed that up or tested it themselves.

Quebeen · 08/31/06, 8:10 PM

@ altairian; Yea just waiting on some gear improvement to go DW, or maybe even prot /shrug 2H Fury is by far the most effective for me atm tho, when I'm not tanking ;] Anyhow, it was before 1.12 that I noticed a big difference, since 1.11 in fact. I thought there was perhaps a un-notified change.
@ Kasi; Oh thats not a lot, strange that I'm having difficulties... I'll do some more testing. Ty for the replies ;]

Roana · 09/01/06, 9:41 AM

According to my tests, Hamstring has between 144-154 points of damage worth of innate threat. As with Kenco's data, this value is modified by stance (and since Hamstring can't be used in defensive stance, actually generated threat will be 80% of that value).

Edit: Here's the combat log that allowed me to determine that range:

18:21:42.302  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 33.
18:21:42.319  You miss Scarlet Gallant.
18:21:42.326  Your Hamstring hits Scarlet Gallant for 41.
18:21:43.182  Scarlet Gallant is afflicted by Hamstring.
18:21:43.187  You hit Scarlet Gallant for 53.
18:21:43.192  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 12. (glancing)
18:21:44.234  Scarlet Gallant misses you.
18:21:44.860  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:21:44.864  Scarlet Gallant's Crusader Strike was parried.
18:21:45.551  Scarlet Gallant misses you.
18:21:45.969  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 12. (glancing)
18:21:48.749  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 38.
18:21:48.753  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 30.
18:21:49.443  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:21:49.849  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 36.
18:21:50.521  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant dodges.
18:21:50.137  Scarlet Gallant's Hammer of Justice was resisted.
18:21:51.984  Scarlet Gallant misses you.
18:21:52.519  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 13. (glancing)
18:21:53.375  Scarlet Gallant's Crusader Strike hits you for 19.
18:21:53.378  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 40.
18:21:53.870  You are afflicted by Crusader Strike.
18:21:53.929  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:21:54.782  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 32.
18:21:55.205  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:21:56.215  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 38.
18:21:56.597  Tracking Hound misses Scarlet Gallant.
18:21:57.623  Hamstring fades from Scarlet Gallant.
18:21:57.004  Scarlet Gallant misses you.
18:21:57.011  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 27.
18:21:59.689  Scarlet Gallant's Crusader Strike hits you for 19.
18:21:59.761  You are afflicted by Crusader Strike (2).
18:21:59.765  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 13. (glancing)
18:22:00.286  Scarlet Gallant attacks. You dodge.
18:22:01.586  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:22:01.618  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 34.
18:22:02.652  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:22:02.033  Scarlet Gallant attacks. You parry.
18:22:03.055  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 17. (glancing)
18:22:04.836  Scarlet Gallant attacks. You parry.
18:22:05.692  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 8. (glancing)
18:22:07.294  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 36.
18:22:07.297  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 16. (glancing)
18:22:08.539  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 11. (18 blocked)
18:22:09.254  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 37.
18:22:10.269  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant dodges.
18:22:10.064  Scarlet Gallant misses you.
18:22:11.442  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:22:11.034  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 41.
18:22:13.537  Tracking Hound misses Scarlet Gallant.
18:22:13.131  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 36.
18:22:14.731  Tracking Hound misses Scarlet Gallant.
18:22:15.119  Scarlet Gallant's Crusader Strike was parried.
18:22:15.135  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:22:15.137  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 39.
18:22:17.632  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 28.
18:22:17.113  Scarlet Gallant attacks. You parry.
18:22:18.991  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:22:19.624  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 35.
18:22:20.666  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant dodges.
18:22:22.494  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 9. (glancing)
18:22:22.498  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 41.
18:22:23.748  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 13. (glancing)
18:22:25.584  Scarlet Gallant's Crusader Strike hits you for 19.
18:22:25.587  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 33.
18:22:25.661  You are afflicted by Crusader Strike (3).
18:22:25.666  Tracking Hound attacks. Scarlet Gallant parries.
18:22:25.691  Scarlet Gallant hits you for 38.
18:22:26.745  Tracking Hound hits Scarlet Gallant for 10. (glancing)
18:22:27.824  Scarlet Gallant crits Tracking Hound for 120.

Jekar · 09/01/06, 11:10 AM

That would be consistent with the results I saw, where I appeared to have a couple thousand more threat than KTM showed after about 45 seconds of spamming Hamstrings. Thanks for doing a test.

Celandro · 09/01/06, 11:14 AM

That doesnt show if the threat applies if the target mob is hamstring immune. I cant think of a good test mob off the top of my head though.

Deathwing · 09/01/06, 11:20 AM

WTF, hamstring has almost as much threat as HS? That's fucked up.

Jekar · 09/01/06, 1:17 PM

Yeah, if that range is accurate, you would think that Hamstring should have a tooltip that says "generates a moderate [or high] amount of threat".

Kalman · 09/01/06, 1:25 PM

I wonder if it was added as a quiet way to decrease the effectiveness of WF hamspam without actually nerfing Windfury?

Celandro · 09/01/06, 1:50 PM

Piercing Howl if it sticks has always had hate on it, see Razorgore. Hamstring should as well.

Question is wether the debuff causes hate if it doesnt stick (I dont believe it does or if it does, not as much).

If someone could test both piercing howl and hamstring on a rock elemental that would help.

Roana · 09/01/06, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Celandro

Piercing Howl if it sticks has always had hate on it, see Razorgore. Hamstring should as well.

Question is wether the debuff causes hate if it doesnt stick (I dont believe it does or if it does, not as much).

If someone could test both piercing howl and hamstring on a rock elemental that would help.

Hmm. Piercing Howl had been tested by Cop (and I believe also Kenco) to have zero threat. Obviously, that may have changed in recent patches, but not all warrior abilities do have threat associated with them. Concussion Blow, for example, has either no threat or a very, very low value.

Roana · 09/01/06, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

I wonder if it was added as a quiet way to decrease the effectiveness of WF hamspam without actually nerfing Windfury?

I tested that with the old patch. The threat value existed before they had even tried to change Windfury.

Deathwing · 09/01/06, 6:52 PM

Do you get threat from the rage you gain from the mob hitting you?

If you don't, my 3 tests(stupid dog whistle ran out) coroborate Roana's findings. I had hamstring in the range of 145 to 160 threat while in battle stance, so that would be 181 to 200 unmodified. Unless that kind of threat isn't modified by stance, never was sure about that.

Either way, this puts a big damper on spamstring builds :( And it would explain how I pulled agro on phase 2 nef a few weeks ago. Maybe I'll look into a slam build.

Celandro · 09/01/06, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by Roana

Originally Posted by Celandro

Piercing Howl if it sticks has always had hate on it, see Razorgore. Hamstring should as well.

Question is wether the debuff causes hate if it doesnt stick (I dont believe it does or if it does, not as much).

If someone could test both piercing howl and hamstring on a rock elemental that would help.

Hmm. Piercing Howl had been tested by Cop (and I believe also Kenco) to have zero threat. Obviously, that may have changed in recent patches, but not all warrior abilities do have threat associated with them. Concussion Blow, for example, has either no threat or a very, very low value.

I believe it depends on wether the mob is immune. I will test tonight if I can.

Quebeen · 09/02/06, 8:37 AM

I'm glad I wasnt just seeing ghosts ;]

I believe this to be a quiet change in 1.11, before 1.11 I was having no problems at all with hamspam. I've tried a slam build and I must say I find the castbar extremely annoying... It requires extreme timing to make sure you dont use it during a white swing whilst keeping up WW and BT, and its not like a DPS warrior going full out isnt heavy on micro already ;p
I now combine hamspam with cleavage and got everyone using KTM (thx Kenco ^^) so I know what my max should be. Effectively it is now safer to use HS than hamspam, which is rediculous imho ;/ Damn windfury totems ><

Celandro · 09/05/06, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Celandro

Originally Posted by Roana

Originally Posted by Celandro

Piercing Howl if it sticks has always had hate on it, see Razorgore. Hamstring should as well.

Question is wether the debuff causes hate if it doesnt stick (I dont believe it does or if it does, not as much).

If someone could test both piercing howl and hamstring on a rock elemental that would help.

Hmm. Piercing Howl had been tested by Cop (and I believe also Kenco) to have zero threat. Obviously, that may have changed in recent patches, but not all warrior abilities do have threat associated with them. Concussion Blow, for example, has either no threat or a very, very low value.

I believe it depends on wether the mob is immune. I will test tonight if I can.

I did get to test and
Piercing howl gives a daze effect which is a very low or possibly 0 threat amount. With a quick test of 10 piercing howls, a warrior with no gear on can pull agro with 1 melee round. Daze is not the same effect as a hamstring style snare though so the theory that debuff agro = debuff strength * constant is still possible.

According to: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro
Demoralizing roar (-130 AP) = 42 agro 130/42 = 3.10 130/41 = 3.17
Demoralizing shout (-140AP) = 43 agro 140/43 = 3.26 140/44 = 3.18
These are close enough to assume margin of error or rounding.

What use is this? We can use it to predict what threat value abilities should have

Use the average out to 3.18
What should imp demo shout do?
140 * 1.4 / 3.18 = 61.6

What about rank 4 demo shout?
105 / 3.18 = 33.0

How about if we apply this to fairy fire, heroic strike and sunder armor?
Fairie fire: 505: 108 505 / 108 = 4.68
heroic strike: high threat(56): 145
heroic strike: high threat(60): 173
predicted high threat(58): 159
predicted high threat(54): 131
Sunder armor: 450 + high threat(58): 260 predicted: 450 * / 4.68 = 96 base threat, 163 high threat

Seems reasonable. Of course these numbers dont fit the revenge and shield slam numbers so maybe it's a lucky coincidence. Or maybe there is manual tweaking going on or there are different categories of 'high threat' besides just level of spell. Then again, revenge with high theat (54) and revenge with high threat(60) has a difference of 40 threat instead of the predicted difference of 42 so maybe there is something going on here.

How much agro should a 5 point expose armor generate?
Expose armor: 1700 : ? 1700 / 4.68 = 363

Right? Wrong? Useless theory crafting? Maybe.

Deathwing · 09/05/06, 2:05 PM

So, what this looks like is each spell with a debuff, whether it says "causes high threat" or not, has a unique scalar for the threat it causes based on three things:

type of debuff applied
level the skill is learned, which becomes the coefficient for
level character using the skill

I'm at work right now(and the servers are down), and it's been quite a long time since I looked at my warrior's spell book, but they still leave us rank one of each spell? Perhaps spamstringers that are running into agro problems should use rank one of hamstring? Or switch to a 2H slam build when the expac arrives.

• frmorrison · 09/05/06, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

it's been quite a long time since I looked at my warrior's spell book, but they still leave us rank one of each spell? Perhaps spamstringers that are running into agro problems should use rank one of hamstring? Or switch to a 2H slam build when the expac arrives.

Last time I looked, when you learn a new rank, it overrights the old rank (does the same for Rogues). The only way I see to use R1 is to not ever train the skill past the first.

Maybe you can force rank 1 by using /cast hamstring (rank 1) and see what happens.

Even though the spell is not in the spellbook, maybe the macro will make it usable.