Xaeroflex

Hello all, I’ve been a lurker on the EJ forums for a while now (lots of good information to go around), I thought I’d share what I found from the benefit of using activated trinkets (such as Earthstrike) coupled with the hunters ability to feign death and swap in the middle of combat. Here’s what I found:

Goals:
To determine the effects of various, passive and activated/cooldown, trinkets available up to Naxxaramus combined with the hunters ability to Feign Death and swap trinkets in the middle of a fight.

Trinkets considered:
Blackhands Breadth (2% Crit)
Royal Seal of Eldre’Thalas (+48 Ranged Attack Power)
Drake Fang Talisman (+56 Attack Power)
Devilsaur Eye (+150 Attack Power for 20 seconds, 2 minute cooldown)
Earthstrike (+280 Attack Power for 20 seconds, 2 minute cooldown)
Slayers Crest (+64 Attack Power, +260 Attack Power for 20 seconds, 2 minute assumed cooldown [can someone confirm this?])

Trinkets not considered:
Jom Gabbar (I’m at a loss as to how to model this accurately)
Kiss of the Spider

Scenario:
A fully raid buffed, reasonable well geared hunter with range against a zero armor target, with no aggro or mana issues, using Rank 5 Multishot and Rank 6 Aimed shot with a 3.0 speed (after quiver bonus) crossbow, 13.5 DPS ammo, in a 10 second shot rotation. I’ll be using the Xbow of Smiting average damage for the calculations.

Rapid fire will not be calculated into the damage results, as it is a multiplier of your current average DPS, thus whichever trinkets increases your average DPS the most will benefit the most out of Rapid fire.

Calculations used:
Damage is calculated per 10 seconds, assuming 1 Aimed Shot, 1 Multishot, and 3 Auto Shots take place during the 10 second rotation.

Total Damage Done = (Non-crit damage)*(1+((Crit rate)*1.3))

Non-crit damage average = 600+150+(2*((((AP/14)*2.8))+7+155+(13.5*3.4))))+ (3*(((AP)/14)*3.4+155+(13.5*3.4)+7))

Initial stats:
1700 Attack Power (no trinkets equipped)
25% Crit rate

Base Damage:
600+150+(2*((((1700/14)*2.8))+7+155+(13.5*3.4))))+ (3*(((1700)/14)*3.4+155+(13.5*3.4)+7))

[top]3708

Accounting for crits:

3708*(1+((0.25)*1.3))

[top]4913

Which is:
491.3 DPS

Using Blackhands Breadth only:
Base Damage

3708
Damage with Crits

[top] 3708*(1+((0.27)*1.3))

5010

Or:
501.0 DPS

Using the Royal Seal:
Base Damage

[top] 4985
Damage with Crits

3762*(1+((0.25)*1.3))

[top] 4984

Or:
498.4 DPS

Using the Drake Fang Talisman:
Base Damage

3771
Damage with Crits

[top] 3771*(1+((0.25)*1.3))

4997

Or:
499.7 DPS

Using the Slayers Crest in passive mode:
Base Damage

[top] 3780
Damage with Crits

3780*(1+((0.25)*1.3))

[top] 5009

Or:
500.9 DPS

Conclusions from Passive Trinkets:
Since we already know that crit scales to your attack power, there is a breaking point with each of the passive +AP trinkets vs the 2% crit from Blackhands Breadth, this one happens to be pretty close to 64 AP, given that guilds breaking into AQ40/Naxx, DFT + BB combo is the best combination of passive trinkets outside of Naxx as shown below (Slayers Crest is assumed to be not activated for the following calculation, for purposes you will see later in this thread):

Combination
Base Damage
Damage with Crits
DPS

SC + BB
3780
5107
510.7 DPS

DFT + BB
3771
5095
509.5 DPS

SC + DFT
3844
5093
509.3 DPS

DFT + 48AP
3825
5069
506.9 DPS

Active Trinkets:
There’s several schools of thought on actived trinkets such as Devilsaur Eye and Earthstrike, one is to open with the trinket, Feign Death and swap to a passive trinket, Feigning Death again 30seconds from the expiration of the trinkets cooldown in order to minimize the time spent without a stat boosting passive trinket.

Another is to juggle several activated trinkets, in the hopes that the damage done during the time the trinkets are active will out damage the 30 seconds worth of no stats during the trinket swap cooldown.

Methods analyzed:
During a 120 second (the cooldown of many activated trinkets) cycle, the followed methods are used:

1) Starting with an activated trinket and a passive trinket, opening with the activated trinket, FD and swapping to a passive trinket for the duration of the cycle, without ever swapping back.

2) Starting the same with the above combo, however, 30 seconds out from the expiration of the cooldown, FD and swap to the activated trinket for another burst when the cooldown/equip cooldown is finished.

3) Starting with one activated trinket and a passive trinket, opening with the activated trinket, FD and swapping to another activated trinket at the 30 second mark, activating the second one at 60 seconds, and swapping to the first activated trinket again at the 90 second mark.

4) Starting with two activated trinkets, opening with the first one, activating the second trinket, FD and swapping in two passive trinkets.

5) Same as the above, however at the 90 second mark FD and swap in the two activated trinket to continue the cycle.

For the passive trinket, the priority will be Blackhands Breadth, followed by the Drakefang Talisman. For the activated trinket, the priority will be Earthstrike and then the Devilsaur Eye.

First scenario:
Earthstrike with Blackhands Breadth, FD @ 20 seconds and swapping to Drake Fang Talisman.

Damage done during seconds 0-20 (ES active + BB)

10873
Damage done during seconds 20-120 (BB + DFT)

[top] 50950
Total Damage done / 120 seconds

61823 / 120 = 515.2 DPS

Second Scenario:
Earthstrike with Blackhands Breadth, FD @ 20 seconds and swapping to Drake Fang Talisman, FD @ 90 seconds to swap in Earthstrike.

Damage done during seconds 0-20 (ES active + BB)

[top] 10873
Damage done during seconds 20-90 (BB + DFT)

35665
Damage done during seconds 90-120 (ES cooldown + BB)

[top] 15029
Total Damage done / 120 seconds

61567 / 120 = 513.1 DPS

Third Scenario:
Earthstrike and Blackhands Breadth equipped, FD and swapping to Devilsaur Eye at 30 seconds, using the Devilsaur Eye at 60 seconds, FD and swapping Earthstrike for Devilsaur Eye at 90 seconds (This ones very messy, I’m open to a better way of sorting multiple activated trinkets, and be happy to model it).

Damage done during seconds 0-20 (ES active + BB)

[top] 10873
Damage done during seconds 20-30 (ES inactive + BB)

5010
Damage done during seconds 30-60 (DE on cooldown + BB)

[top] 15029
Damage done during seconds 60-80 (DE + BB)

10477
Damage done during seconds 80-90 (DE Inactive + BB)

[top] 5010
Damage done during seconds 90-120 (ES on cooldown + BB)

15029
Total Damage done / 120 seconds

[top] 61426 / 120

511.9

Note: There’s just too much dead time of not having a +AP buff during this rotation.

Fourth Scenario:
Earthstrike and Devilsaur Eye equipped, activating Earthstrike followed by Devilsaur Eye, FD and swapping in Blackhands Breadth and Drake Fang Talisman.

Damage done during seconds 0-20 (ES active + DE inactive)

[top] 10664
Damage done during seconds 20-40 (DE active + ES inactive)

10275
Damage done during seconds 40-120 (BB + DFT)

[top] 40760
Total Damage done / 120 seconds

61669 / 120 = 514.2


Fifth Scenario:
Earthstrike and Devilsaur Eye equipped, activating Earthstrike followed by Devilsaur Eye, FD and swapping in Blackhands Breadth and Drake Fang Talisman, FD and swapping n Earthstrike and Devilsaur Eye at 90 seconds.

Damage done during seconds 0-20 (ES active + DE inactive)

[top] 10664
Damage done during seconds 20-40 (DE active + ES inactive)

10275
Damage done during seconds 40-90 (BB + DFT)

[top] 25475
Damage done during seconds 90-120 (ES and DE on cooldown)

14740
Total Damage done / 120 seconds

[top] 61154 / 120

509.6

Conclusions:
According to my calculations, In order to have an overall higher DPS, in a sustained fight, than a Blackhands Breadth + Drake Fang Talisman combination, the simplest solution that requires the least amount of Feign Deaths is keeping Blackhands Breadth active, and cycling Earthstrike with the Drake Fang Talisman.

This does not take into account the times that you would be otherwise unable to DPS. Maximizing the time DPSing while the trinket is activated, and keeping as much of the cooldown time during a time that you would be otherwise unable to DPS will maximize the use of such activated trinkets. Given my lack of experience with endgame content, I cannot point to a specific fight and say which times that would be.

In addition, given the knowledge that FD+Drink is less than optimal for DPS, I wonder how much more benefit that a FD+Drinking rotation would get out of using the trinket swap cooldown during the drinking time. I’ll be attempting to model this soon.

Slayers Crest:

The Slayers Crest and Kiss of the Spider are two excellent trinkets, having both passive stats and an activated bonus, thus eliminating the lack of having a passive +stat trinket during the cooldown phases of either trinket (which is the killer behind other activated trinkets)

Slayers Crest + Blackhands Breadth:
Damage done during seconds 0-20 (SC active)

[top] 11007
Damage done during seconds 20-120 (SC inactive)

51072
Total Damage done / 120 seconds

[top] 62079 / 120

517.3

Summary:

Trinket 1
Trinket 2
DPS over 120 seconds

Slayers Crest (Activated during Cycle)
Blackhands Breadth
517.3 DPS

Earthstrike -> DFT
Blackhands Breadth
515.2 DPS

Earthstrike -> DFT -> ES
Blackhands Breadth
513.1 DPS

ES -> DE -> ES
Blackhands Breadth
511.9 DPS

Slayers Crest (Inactive)
Blackhands Breadth
510.7 DPS

Drake Fang Talisman
Blackhands Breadth
509.5 DPS

Slayers Crest (Inactive)
Drake Fang Talisman
509.3 DPS

I apologise for the lack of formatting -_-. Thoughts?

\"...and then there are some who view Flex as some sort of God.\"

 

Avellyr

This is interesting stuff. I always figured that I would get max DPS by switching back and forth, but I guess i was wrong. Badge of the Swarmguard is an excellent trinket that you forgot, and although it would be impossible to model without knowing the armor value of your targets, it adds a substantial amount of DPS and can be activated concurrently with any of the other trinkets you listed.

 

Phon

I did some personal modelling of this too. I found the JG/ES combo to be the highest DPS increase.

I modelled the Jom Gabber by showing the average DPS for the two seconds of each trinket "proc". I also used a much lower RAP/Crit combo.

Time RAP DPS
0:02 1217 571
0:04 1282 583
0:06 1347 596
0:08 1412 608
0:10 1477 620
0:12 1542 632
0:14 1607 645
0:16 1672 657
0:18 1737 669
0:20 1802 681

When you can start with the Earthstrike, FD and switch to the JG immediately, you gain loads of DPS. You basically stop a whole 30 "global cooldown" on your trinkets which equates to a large damage increase.

I also modelled the ZHM... but it's not even worth posting =P. You lose DPS from it without even counting the cooldown time.

 

Decker

Not entirely wrong Avellyr. At the beginning of a fight if you "pop your trinkets" and then swap out to passive trinkets for the duration of the fight this IMO would be a MAX DPS option. Only bad thing is though hunters get full hate at the beginning of a fight, and depending on the boss it could be potential for pulling hate. You'll want to be sure that you're DPSing for the entirety of your rapid fire/trinket etc (around 30 seconds), so this can be great stuff for fights like Patchwerk :)

http://www.paradosi.net

 

Rabid Rob

I currently use a 3 minute cycle thanks to Striker's set, with Earthstrike and Badge of the Swarmguard.

Using some armor estimating mods, I've found most bosses have around %15 damage reduction, low enough that anything that lowers their armor is a pretty nice DPS increase, and high enough that even with full debuffs, the boss's armor won't get to 0.

 

danison

What about Renataki's Charm of Beasts?

 

Xaeroflex

Popping trinkets at the beginning of the fight, and never cycling back to them only give the benefit for that first 20 seconds or so, and eventually evens out below cycling one active trinket.

Lets take a 7 minute duration:
Blackhands Breadth + Earthstrike, swapping to Drake Fang Talisman @ 20 seconds, and swapping back to Earthstrike @90 seconds in order to perpetuate the 2 minute cycle, will obviously keep the same DPS it did during the first 2 minutes (for the purposes of this example, I'm not going to consider Rapid Fire), which is:
513.1 DPS

Blackhands Breadth + Earthstrike, swapping to Drake Fang Talisman and never swapping back.
@ 2 minutes
61823 damage done
515.2 DPS
good so far? right.

@ 4 minutes
122963 damage done
512.3 DPS

@ 6 minutes
184103 damage done
511.4 DPS

and finally, at 7 minutes:
214673 damage done
511.1 DPS

Granted, its still higher than sticking with Blackhands Breadth and Drake Fang Talisman, but is not higher than continually cycling Earthstrike and Drake Fang Talisman. Even better if you can make as much of the trinket swap cooldown time during a time you would otherwise be unable to DPS (ie FD/drink >.<).

\"...and then there are some who view Flex as some sort of God.\"

 

Elendril

your math here seems to assume a universal 100% hit rate, which significantly impacts the value of drake fang talisman in your model.

 

Avellyr

Unfortunately, on patchwerk you can't trinket swap, because his combat pulse is either too fast or he puts a certain area around him in combat permanently. It's too bad, because it's practically the perfect fight for this.

 

Decker

I haven't tried this as I'm not a fan of swapping trinkets (also don't have anything to swap to), but if you queue up an item swap with Itemrack, and then FD...it should do it right away. Have you tried this?

http://www.paradosi.net

 

Xaeroflex

Truth, I assumed a 100% hit rate.

\"...and then there are some who view Flex as some sort of God.\"

 

Avellyr

Yes, you never drop combat within 41 yards of him. I can still run way off into the corner to FD during a wipe, but It won't let me go if i'm standing in firing range.

 

Elendril

and here i was getting pissed that my itemrack wasn't working :-P hmm - might be better just to use seal of the damn than my jom gabbar for patchwerk :-P

 

Gonkish

I was swapping in the badge of the swarmguard just fine on Patchwerk last night?

If your pet is wailing on him you're obviously not going to get out of combat but if you're just there by yourself? I have never had a problem feigning to swap on him thus far.

Why Hunters suffer...
Benefactor's Bar learns you some goodness quicklike...

 

Avellyr

That's pretty weird. My FD button has petpassivemode macroed onto it, so that's not my problem, and i never put up serpent sting, because that's just stupid. I thought it might be a range issue, so i went to max range and still had the same problem. He'll also hateful strike you even when you're feigned provided he gets near you, which leads me to believe it's some kind of perma-combat aura. In any case, I wouldn't rely on trinket swapping too much inthat fight because it's possible you'll run into that problem.

 

Rabid Rob

get your pet back to you so he's not attacking, turn of furious howl so he's not buffing anyone, no serpent sting, and try not to have a shot in flight....

i cannot confirm that anything besides pet attack as keeping you in combat, but I am suspicious of them!

 

Zeboim

Have you though about using 4 activated trinkets? With a 2 minute cd on each you could use one each time you FD. For example:

trinket 1 and trinket 2 are equipped
use trinket 1, wait 30 seconds
fd, switch trinket 1 with trinket 3
use trinket 2, wait 30 seconds
fd, switch trinket 2 with trinket 4
use trinket 3, wait 30 seconds
fd, switch trinket 3 with trinket 1
use trinket 4, wait 30 seconds
fd, switch trinket 4 with trinket 2
repeat

That cycle should take 2 minutes and you will have a trinket activated 66% of the time(20 seconds out of 30). The first 4 trinkets you can get are Devilsuar Eye, Earthstrike, Zandalar Heros Madalion, Jom Gabbar. I thought about using the Rel'lik Charm of the Beasts in the cycle, but it has a 3 minute cd.

 

Tors

I've been using TrinketMenu to do trinket swapping and queuing swaps. It's worked very well for me. I've noticed that sometimes even in the middle of killing trash that it will swap trinkets for me after a mob dies and there are still some left.

I have an Earthstrike and after I got Badge of the Swarmguard I finally sat down and wrote a mod that would work with TrinketMenu to autoswap my trinkets for me. I was always forgetting to swap out/in my Earthstrike at the best times, and now with this autoswap mod I never have to worry about swapping out my Use trinkets and swap them back in when they're nearing cooldown. Laziness ftw heh

Dude, don't fuck up the rotation

 

Xaeroflex

hmm, interesting combination, i'll attempt at modeling that today :D. Only problem I see with it, is that you'd have a trinket active for 20 out of 30 seconds, but no other +stat benefit ie Blackhands Breadth thats synergizing with the active trinket, I'll post the results I find.

\"...and then there are some who view Flex as some sort of God.\"

 

Vanick

Noth's armor, with full debuffs + Badge, is zero.

I wrote a small spreadsheet to model the Badge's damage increase when used. It's most useful on mobs with about 20% mitigation from what I've found...but I digress.

With proper trinket choice and use you could probably overlap the cooldowns/warmups, but I'm no hunter so I have no real experience with this :)

 

Zeboim

Perhaps share with those that are even lazier and wont/cant do that kind of mod?

 

Xard

To me, as a physical dpser, I would say that badge is the best activate trinket in the game. It isn't super reliable, but when you get 6 stacks of debuff with 15 seconds left, and you can really just pile on the other cooldowns and push everything in that window, your damage really skyrockets. I always use my badge with blade flurry, and if I could swap in another active trinket with it (currently using DFT, not willing to swap that out just to get two active trinkets together every few minutes) I definitely would.

Jom Gabbar + Badge or Earthstrike + Badge would make for some insane damage. Add other cooldowns on top of that, and possibly consumables (tea, rage pots, etc) and you can really push insane damage during those few seconds.

this to me seems to be the key, putting on that next trinket when its got 30 seconds left on the cooldown will give you much more optimal uptime than losing 30 seconds of its non cooldowned use just because you equipped it too late. However as a non hunter I don't know the practicality of this, but I do think that being able to swap in so many trinkets could be a key towards making hunter dps really amazing.

 

Elendril

does JG stack with badge?

if so i need one :-P

 

Fendryl

Badge doesn't seem to share a cooldown with anything.

And yes, me too. However, I'm concerned that once we finish C'thun we're going to bow to the pressure & not bother with Ouru, focusing only on Naxx =(

 

Nasq

AutoTrinketLoader works pretty well.